Alpha Build #9 Discussion Thread

@kEsa1996 said:

IMO it's far worse than it was before patch 9.

Why?

The old system had you click and then flick to make an attack. What you did before clicking didn't matter, only the direction the mouse was moving at the moment you pressed down LMB (Where it was moving after the click didn't matter either). If the mouse wasn't moving at the moment you pressed down LMB the game took the first movement you did with LMB pressed as the input. This enabled you to flick and click at the same time: as long as your mouse was still moving when LMB was clicked, it registered.

The new system takes input from before the click. This means that should I click a fraction of a second before I begin my click, the attack will go in a totally random direction.

Instead of the old system where you decided that "I want to hit NOW" and then made a small flick with the mouse to tell the game where you want to hit, the new system forces you to think "I want to hit SOON" and make the flick before clicking (And should your flick end and you begin bringing your mouse back to the center position before you click, the strike will start in the wrong direction). Basically the new system makes aiming strikes where you want them to go really hard.

Valid points my good man.
Perhaps there can be a toggle in options between the old and new to really get a feel for what people think about it. May just be a preference thing.

@Reapy said:
I like the button pressing ending the attack input collection too because it is precise and faster, it is one pixel movement. When you click and flick, the flick is some timing window, how long do you have to continue flicking? How long until you can adjust your view after clicking? Probably a long window of time.

Clicking first starts the attack at the precise time you want it conceived, idk but the window of time you have to adjust your attack isn't much more than a pixel or two. (Again idk i havn't played yet)
Still, this makes the old system more precise in terms of timing.

Having the option to change it though is good because I believe I've seen a lot of talk over in m&b about people wanting to click & flick over there.

I know, small team, priorities, but hope down the line in release they can have a really sweet swing control config screen to just absolutely set it up how you want between all these options. Have a few preset control schemes that are well thought out, and then tons of configuration options. I'd have that really low on the priority list though heh

Agreed

@Reapy said:

@kEsa1996 said:
Instead of the old system where you decided that "I want to hit NOW" and then made a small flick with the mouse to tell the game where you want to hit, the new system forces you to think "I want to hit SOON" and make the flick before clicking (And should your flick end and you begin bringing your mouse back to the center position before you click, the strike will start in the wrong direction). Basically the new system makes aiming strikes where you want them to go really hard.

Haven't tried it yet, but really interesting how the different brain patterns work for choosing to attack. Playing m&b I really was just dialed into flick and click because the direction was very important, more so than the timing. I imagine you have a chivalry background where the timing is more important than the directions and so you want to be precise in the start time of the attack.

I like the button pressing ending the attack input collection too because it is precise and faster, it is one pixel movement. When you click and flick, the flick is some timing window, how long do you have to continue flicking? How long until you can adjust your view after clicking? Probably a long window of time.

When you move first, one or two pixels, then click, you know that your camera is free to angle the swing any way you want now and your mouse is back to looking around. It is very clear and fast. Flick, click, back to moving.

I think if anything going with this will make it more relaxing for m&b players coming into mordhau anyhow and probably should be the default. Having the option to change it though is good because I believe I've seen a lot of talk over in m&b about people wanting to click & flick over there.

I know, small team, priorities, but hope down the line in release they can have a really sweet swing control config screen to just absolutely set it up how you want between all these options. Have a few preset control schemes that are well thought out, and then tons of configuration options. I'd have that really low on the priority list though heh

You seem to have misunderstood me somewhat :D I actually come from WOTR (Could be described as an improved version of M&B), not Chivalry.

As for your post, some corrections and some clarifications:

The attack system in M&B works click > flick style (Mordhau old style), not flick > click (Mordhau new style). You can try it. flick your mouse before clicking LMB. Nothing will happen. Now, keeping LMB pressed down, move your mouse very slightly. You will begin a swing.

Currently it's the opposite in Mordhau. What decides your attack direction is the last direction your mouse was moving in before the click. In M&B and WOTR it is the first direction your mouse moves in after the click. This enables you to click and flick at the same time in M&B and WOTR and get the direction you want. In Mordhau you can't click and flick at the same time as it will take the directional input from before your click and thus the direction of your flick will be irrelevant. Similarly, in the new system, if you click too late and you are already moving your mouse back to center position from where you flicked it, the attack will again ignore the flick and instead go in roughly the opposite direction (To the direction where you're pulling you're mouse after the flick).

@Trevz TheCuz said:

@kEsa1996 said:

IMO it's far worse than it was before patch 9.

Why?

The old system had you click and then flick to make an attack. What you did before clicking didn't matter, only the direction the mouse was moving at the moment you pressed down LMB (Where it was moving after the click didn't matter either). If the mouse wasn't moving at the moment you pressed down LMB the game took the first movement you did with LMB pressed as the input. This enabled you to flick and click at the same time: as long as your mouse was still moving when LMB was clicked, it registered.

The new system takes input from before the click. This means that should I click a fraction of a second before I begin my click, the attack will go in a totally random direction.

Instead of the old system where you decided that "I want to hit NOW" and then made a small flick with the mouse to tell the game where you want to hit, the new system forces you to think "I want to hit SOON" and make the flick before clicking (And should your flick end and you begin bringing your mouse back to the center position before you click, the strike will start in the wrong direction). Basically the new system makes aiming strikes where you want them to go really hard.

Valid points my good man.
Perhaps there can be a toggle in options between the old and new to really get a feel for what people think about it. May just be a preference thing.

They are currently implementing a console command to change to the old system. I hope they will make this an option though as most people will never hear of it should it be left as a console command and I'm sure anyone with more than passing interest into WOTR or M&B will feel that something is very much off (Going from WOTR to M&B already felt like intentionally handicapping myself and the only difference there was graphics and animations. Having the very aim system change but in a way that it still looks the same will annoy all the experienced players to no end. It's like being taught to walk in one game and discovering you are unable to do it in another).

I really cannot get into new builds when players just turn up and accelerate at your feet the whole fight and it's a gamble whether you can parry anything because you're trying to chamber attacks that can't be and in general trying to play normal while they spaz out and try and break the tracers. Delay dragging is fine but jesus the speeds on weapons vary so wildly it's impossible to tell at a glance whether something can interrupt your current action. Like starting a kick and then they have time to start an lmb and drag it into you before your kick lands, what's the god damn point of counter kicking if a fricking eveningstar can just beat it anyway.

@Goatie said:
I really cannot get into new builds when players just turn up and accelerate at your feet the whole fight and it's a gamble whether you can parry anything because you're trying to chamber attacks that can't be and in general trying to play normal while they spaz out and try and break the tracers. Delay dragging is fine but jesus the speeds on weapons vary so wildly it's impossible to tell at a glance whether something can interrupt your current action. Like starting a kick and then they have time to start an lmb and drag it into you before your kick lands, what's the god damn point of counter kicking if a fricking eveningstar can just beat it anyway.

Yeah this is something that isn't discussed very much on the forums but I completely agree. Accelerations are way too fast, that it becomes practically impossible to "react" to them, so I have to try and predict with a parry gamble. If they decide to not accelerate the strike I'm fucked.

It's very effective at beating even skilled players also, I have a background of almost 3k hours in chivalry and it pissed me off pretty fast so i worry if left unattended it could become abit meta by release and will drive away all the new players much like reverse overheads did. It does not look like fighting nor does it feel good or fair, just being cheesed and your only way to fight back is to cheese as well. I am hoping the new animations they are working on resolve this in some way but i don't think that alone will stop people aiming at the feet and accelerating as a playstyle.

I've noticed some of the hitboxes are messed up, idk enough about game development to tell you what exactly is wrong, but since the last patch I get hit a lot AFTER ducking a strike, or kicked when the person kicking isnt even aiming at me. Before this patch those things never happened to me.

@kattalainen said:

@Goatie said:
I really cannot get into new builds when players just turn up and accelerate at your feet the whole fight and it's a gamble whether you can parry anything because you're trying to chamber attacks that can't be and in general trying to play normal while they spaz out and try and break the tracers. Delay dragging is fine but jesus the speeds on weapons vary so wildly it's impossible to tell at a glance whether something can interrupt your current action. Like starting a kick and then they have time to start an lmb and drag it into you before your kick lands, what's the god damn point of counter kicking if a fricking eveningstar can just beat it anyway.

Yeah this is something that isn't discussed very much on the forums but I completely agree. Accelerations are way too fast, that it becomes practically impossible to "react" to them, so I have to try and predict with a parry gamble. If they decide to not accelerate the strike I'm fucked.

Also some of the heavy weapons have accels that rival the dagger.

Yeah, not very fond of the rollback on the 240 system. Prefer the click-and-flick, myself.
Why not add it as an option to the settings?

@Sareth said:
Yeah, not very fond of the rollback on the 240 system. Prefer the click-and-flick, myself.
Why not add it as an option to the settings?

Marox said he will add it as a console command.

@Duckalot said:

@Sareth said:
Yeah, not very fond of the rollback on the 240 system. Prefer the click-and-flick, myself.
Why not add it as an option to the settings?

Marox said he will add it as a console command.

Given the choice I'm sure most people with previous experience in a mouse directed aiming system (Anyone who has played M&B, WOTR, Of Kings and Men...) will use the old system and be very annoyed at the game should they be forced to use the new one as it looks so similar to what they are used to but still behaves in a completely different manner. Should the old aiming system be left as a console command only, most of these players will never hear of it and will quit the game due to the aiming system being "broken" (To be precise it's just different but that's what they'll be thinking as it looks identical to what they're used to but doesn't behave at all like they expect it to. I though it was broken too until I realized it was merely working in a completely different way to what I initially though).

The old M&B style input system was much worse. Want to slash at some kneecaps? Do the motion for a slash and turn down to aim, lo and behold you're doing an undercut. Choosing the angle was incredibly difficult when combined with camera movement. Because of the input lag some weapons had nigh impossible morphs, you'd often fail chambers, and riposte inputs would miss their window. It was only good for a static playstyle, that because it was easier to master for a new player.

@Monsteri said:
The old M&B style input system was much worse. Want to slash at some kneecaps? Do the motion for a slash and turn down to aim, lo and behold you're doing an undercut. Choosing the angle was incredibly difficult when combined with camera movement. Because of the input lag some weapons had nigh impossible morphs, you'd often fail chambers, and riposte inputs would miss their window. It was only good for a static playstyle, that because it was easier to master for a new player.

Choosing the angle with the old system, even combined with camera movement was, IMO, ridiculously easy! With the new one it's nigh impossible XD

I still don't know what you people mean with input lag. I never had any. If you really did the click first and the flick after it might cause some delay but the idea is to do them at the same time, something that is not possible with the new system.

The best option would be to have a slider that lets you choose how much you want the game to register direction after clicking. At 0% (default) it would take no input after a click, at 50% it would take the input before and after a click, at 100% it would take input only after the click.

Oh, and stabs should always stay at 0%. They were complete rubbish on the M&B system.

Edit 2: of course you click while flicking, the precise problem the M&B system had was that you had to keep going for way too long after you clicked, it was impossible to smoothly transition to aiming the attack

We should honestly set up polls on some of these ideas, just so we can show the devs if the community actually wants them.

@Monsteri said:
The best option would be to have a slider that lets you choose how much you want the game to register direction after clicking. At 0% (default) it would take no input after a click, at 50% it would take the input before and after a click, at 100% it would take input only after the click.

This might work. If the new system takes input as the average movement within a time window it would work. The old system took the input from the first pixel of movement after the click so there's not much to change there in terms of how far after the click the input is taken.

Oh, and stabs should always stay at 0%. They were complete rubbish on the M&B system.

Didn't pay too much attention to this so I'm not quite sure how it actually worked in the old system but I don't see why stabs wouldn't work just fine in the old system. Scroll > flick. As usual the game would then take the first directional input after the scrolling begins as the directional input, even if said input is given after the scrolling has ended.

Edit 2: of course you click while flicking, the precise problem the M&B system had was that you had to keep going for way too long after you clicked, it was impossible to smoothly transition to aiming the attack

Again we have totally different opinions on this XD With the old system I always began them at the same time and never flicked more than a couple of pixels. With the new one I start the flick, wait a moment to be sure that I don't click too early, click, and then continue flicking for a while before bringing back my mouse to be sure I don't click too late either. This results in ridiculously long flicks (Up to the point where one flick in the new system, if I want to be sure that it actually goes where I want it to, takes something around 0,5 seconds to perform, whereas with the old system I could do it in around 0,1 or so seconds. Both values are based on feeling, not any real statistics, but you get the point).

Finally played some after a week break and chambers feel a lot better now, or at least I have more successful attempts. I'm not as afraid to go for them.