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I can't read drags

Knight 685 1855
  • 6 Oct '17
 ÐMontyleGueux

@Monsteri said:
We should try to make these kinds of attacks look better. If they can be made to look plausible / somewhat intuitive, they have a definite place in the game. If not, they should go.

e: not talking about z-drags in general

So from what i understand, the goal is to make drags look appealing instead of deceiving so that new players feel like getting better instead of throwing the game away quickly like they did with chivalry.
Not that it's really a bad thing, I'm sure having more people interested in the game will be better for us on the long run than defending our strange looking drags to keep the upper hand against non chiv vets.

As for Frise vs the less experienced players, no point arguing because you're both right.
Frise is absolutely right in the sense that these drags can be countered, and rather easily in mordhau due to the game pushing you to gamble.
On the other hand, as it has been said, they look unappealing for a new player and will push away players who want to get better.

Knight 331 456
  • 2
  • 6 Oct '17
 TwistedFox

@Alphonse said:

@Frise said:
You don't need to surgically track the weapon to parry a wessex

I don't want to track every frame

Duke 5562 13285
  • 1
  • 6 Oct '17
 Jax — Community Manager

@Monsteri said:
We should try to make these kinds of attacks look better. If they can be made to look plausible / somewhat intuitive, they have a definite place in the game. If not, they should go.

e: not talking about z-drags in general

only way I could see drags being made to look better is to have the arms move slightly independent of the torso - so if you delay an attack, your torso continues to spin but the weapon and arms attached to it would rotate slightly less. if accelerating, the torso would rotate, and the arms/weapon would rotate slightly faster. In theory, it would look like the player was pulling into the attack (accel) or pulling back (decel).

this brings up a few issues

pro:
would make the game look a lot more natural

cons:
probably a nightmare to animate
causes either a discrepancy of 1p/3p attacks OR would cause the weapon to move off of the center of the screen
makes it potentially harder to use body movement to determine attacks

397 455
  • 6 Oct '17
 JasonBourne

There is nothing deceiving about drags. It is just an extended swing (or a fast one if you accel). However, there are certain ways you can use drags with body feints and that is when it becomes confusing. Well, that is the skill of the player, not the fault of a drag. I can read drags from players very easy while harder against high lvl players because of the timing, placement, ect. they use it. In other words, its a skillset.

Knight 685 1855
  • 6 Oct '17
 ÐMontyleGueux

@JasonBourne said:
There is nothing deceiving about drags. It is just an extended swing (or a fast one if you accel). However, there are certain ways you can use drags with body feints and that is when it becomes confusing. Well, that is the skill of the player, not the fault of a drag. I can read drags from players very easy while harder against high lvl players because of the timing, placement, ect. they use it. In other words, its a skillset.

What I ment by drags can be deceiving is that they repeal new players. When a new player die from feints, morphs, accel or slowed down drags, they know that they failed to read and respond to it. When they die from a wessex or another more complicated drag, they feel cheated and they don't get the incentive to improve, they don't even understand what's going on most of the time.
As skilled players, our challenge is to be able to take a step down and think of people who are new and can't defend or even understand what we are so used to see and counter.
If we don't, people will stay away from the game and leave us playing with the same few players from chivalry.

In short : the whole challenge here is to have new players look at drags as "wow, I would like to know how to do this" instead of "wtf happened ? This is bullshit"

Knight 23 24
  • 1
  • 6 Oct '17
 StoopKid

Having the wrists turn to follow the direction of the swing might help with making animations look less wonky when going for these weird kinds of side overheads and slashes. Have it so the edge of the blade will always point in the direction it's moving.

A big divide in the community over drags seems to stem from some people being more preoccupied with making sure "fights look like fights" and others more concerned that the mechanics can capture the feel of a fight. As it is right now, stuff like side stabs and side slashes serve as the primary way to simulate the feel of adjusting an attack midswing to bypass a block, but can sometimes be visually jarring. This kind of change might help retain the level of control the game allows the player to have over their attacks while also being more visually appealing. That said, this might make trying to chamber different slashes even more of a nightmare, but it's just an idea.

1315 2881
  • 6 Oct '17
 Monsteri

@StoopKid said:
Having the wrists turn to follow the direction of the swing might help with making animations look less wonky when going for these weird kinds of side overheads and slashes. Have it so the edge of the blade will always point in the direction it's moving.

This will look either really good or completely ridiculous. Let's try it I say.

Knight 399 873
  • 2
  • 6 Oct '17
 Alphonse

Another thing that would help would be a longer or more distinctive grunt when weird drags or decel drags are used.

Make it so the grunt when the attack is released is the same, but when it detects any drastic change in angle, the initial "UHHH" is quickly overlapped by a lower "uhghg".

Having the character express the "effort" of the difficult strike would be more immersive and a great sound queue to tell when to parry better.

Knight 331 456
  • 7 Oct '17
 TwistedFox

@Alphonse said:
Another thing that would help would be a longer or more distinctive grunt when weird drags or decel drags are used.

Make it so the grunt when the attack is released is the same, but when it detects any drastic change in angle, the initial "UHHH" is quickly overlapped by a lower "uhghg".

Having the character express the "effort" of the difficult strike would be more immersive and a great sound queue to tell when to parry better.

How would the game know if it's a decel or an accel though? They are both achieved in the same way.

Or if you're saying the uhghg sound comes after the release stage the enemy would have already mistaked a parry by then, either that or they timed it right. and if they panic parry and the sound comes after I think they sound is going to piss people off.

Knight 399 873
  • 2
  • 7 Oct '17
 Alphonse

Okay, to answer your question I'll have to walltext a bit and there might be a lot inaccuracies since I'm not exactly a programmer (stop reading this if this is too off-putting for some of you). Bear with me and call me out if I'm spouting nonsense though.

I couldn't find any debug command relevant to the swing and the tracers themselves, so I'm not entirely sure how this works in Mordhau. In case there's some geometric analysis done by the client (considering collisions between the tracers of 2 different people attacking already tell you if you chamber, clash or whatever), I'm sure it shouldn't be hard to tell a fast drag from a decel one through code (I also think there might be something in the game because Marox mentioned something about "internal angle changes" on one of the recent changelogs, but I'm not 100% sure what this referred to).

I'm not entirely sure such analysis would be the only effective way for knowing what's a decel drag and what's a fast drag or how intensive such analysis would be on the server. However, since only relevant information I found with debug on was the rotation value, which gives you a precise coordinate of where you are looking at, when running, staying idle or when striking, I'll only propose something with this in mind.

  • For normal attacks, combo attacks or fast drags, play one of the existing grunt sounds (Chiv had like 4 or 5 grunts with different intensities, like when you did a 2 hit combo, a 3 hit combo, etc). This grunt sound is played when the tracers are drawn, i.e., when the strike reaches the release phase. It's played almost immediately when this happens, and this sound queue already works pretty well. If it's a fast drag you hear the grunt and if you were tracking the swing, you will know it's a fast one with a little experience.

  • Now, for wessex and decel drags and what not. To do a basic decel drag, you just look / turn in the opposite direction of the swing, sort of like forcing it to "brake" in place. The obvious result of this is that the rotation value for your character changes accordingly, since you are effectively looking in this angle, then at that angle, then a few milliseconds later at this angle, etc., all without a great variance (theoretically) between these 3 moments the rotation is inspected,.

Consider the rotation for a normal horizontal slash. You start your swing looking at North-West, and when the release phase is finished, your character turned North-East.

So, when the client detects a specific change in rotation (e.g., during early release North West, you apply the decel movement and your character still looks mostly North West --a few degrees East towards North--), that's when the client can tell a decel drag might have occurred (*).

Say the average release for 2handers is 500 ms. The grunt occurs at the beginning of the release, and finishes at say 200 ms into the release (this is just a ballpark figure). There are still the remaining 300 ms where the strike can still be dragged but your character doesn't play any grunts (other than the swoooosh foley effect).

So my proposal is that when the decel drag is detected, the initial 200 ms long grunt is followed by another short grunt as closely in time to the change in angle, and in such a way it makes sense for the whole sound effect (imagine a guy pulling weights to picture what sort of sound I'm thinking off with different intensities through the exercise repetitions).

(*) A caveat to this is that you can still spin the mouse mid swing but the change in direction will not register, or at least not noticeably.

@TwistedFox said:
Or if you're saying the uhghg sound comes after the release stage the enemy would have already mistaked a parry by then, either that or they timed it right. and if they panic parry and the sound comes after I think they sound is going to piss people off.

I totally agree with you that the delay between the initial grunt and the second NNNGG sound is crucial for not throwing people off. I don't know if it's feasible from a sound design point of view, if coding-wise it can be consistently detected, and like I said before, I don't know how many resources such angle check would require.

I'm just proposing this hoping to keep a similar degree of freedom in swing manipulation while giving the other guy a fair warning. It's just to tell the other guy "look, this enemy just manipulated his strike in such a way a weird drag might be coming your way". If the grunt sounds longer than usual, then you know it's not a fast drag, so your brain will let you be more prepared and aim elsewhere after developing a little muscle memory.

397 455
  • 7 Oct '17
 JasonBourne

@ÐMontyleGueux said:

@JasonBourne said:
There is nothing deceiving about drags. It is just an extended swing (or a fast one if you accel). However, there are certain ways you can use drags with body feints and that is when it becomes confusing. Well, that is the skill of the player, not the fault of a drag. I can read drags from players very easy while harder against high lvl players because of the timing, placement, ect. they use it. In other words, its a skillset.

What I ment by drags can be deceiving is that they repeal new players. When a new player die from feints, morphs, accel or slowed down drags, they know that they failed to read and respond to it. When they die from a wessex or another more complicated drag, they feel cheated and they don't get the incentive to improve, they don't even understand what's going on most of the time.
As skilled players, our challenge is to be able to take a step down and think of people who are new and can't defend or even understand what we are so used to see and counter.
If we don't, people will stay away from the game and leave us playing with the same few players from chivalry.

In short : the whole challenge here is to have new players look at drags as "wow, I would like to know how to do this" instead of "wtf happened ? This is bullshit"

How do you know it will attract new players easier ? And how do you know they won`t be bored quickly with these reduced mechanics ? tbh I am already a bit bored with these mechanics, and if they are gonna be reduced then I dont know if I keep playing it..

However, maybe drags like frisedrag or wessex could be removed but the rest is fine. If we have to finetune the skillceiling for newcomers then were going no where. A newcomer will always have "wtf" moments in every new game. Hence, its a total new experience.

And btw not every new player will be like that. When I first played chiv I got raped by reverse overheads and shit, my response was not "wtf is this shit?" but rather "wow those spins I need to learn that" and it kept me going. Its a videogame. However, the DEVS could create a more indept video tutorial with EVERY technique (like combo feint to parry ect..) in the game so no one is left out in the shadow.

Duke 2266 4010
  • 7 Oct '17
 Huggles

@DerFurst said:
If you can't chamber overhead drags aimed at the feet

You can, I've met quite a few who could. But the effort required and how dumb it looks to do is ridic.

Knight 123 262
  • 7 Oct '17
 Vin¢

@Alphonse said:
Okay, to answer your question I'll have to walltext a bit and there might be a lot inaccuracies since I'm not exactly a programmer (stop reading this if this is too off-putting for some of you). Bear with me and call me out if I'm spouting nonsense though.

I couldn't find any debug command relevant to the swing and the tracers themselves, so I'm not entirely sure how this works in Mordhau. In case there's some geometric analysis done by the client (considering collisions between the tracers of 2 different people attacking already tell you if you chamber, clash or whatever), I'm sure it shouldn't be hard to tell a fast drag from a decel one through code (I also think there might be something in the game because Marox mentioned something about "internal angle changes" on one of the recent changelogs, but I'm not 100% sure what this referred to).

I don't see any way of reliably detecting decelerated drags without false positives or false negatives. What specifically do you mean by the "internal angle changes"? I'm almost certain this was not related to dragging but something like chambering or parrying. Another thing you're requiring is that the drag be detected before the release phase (so that the grunt can play). This will be even more difficult to achieve since you could simply start an attack and manipulate it while it's in the release phase and so it hits them later. Especially if the grunt noise leads you to believe that they aren't dragging, this will be very confusing.

One thing that could be possible would be to add a damage modifier to the swing so that whenever you turn against the direction of the attack it does less damage. There are a couple of issues with this, however: You can still do decelerated drags by starting your swing really wide (using footwork) and then bringing it back in to the body. This may be more obvious to see but the issue still remains. Secondly, this has severe implications for 1vX play - any change that is designed to limit your movement is going to make teamplay more difficult and unintuitive, and that's not good. Another issue is that this analysis would have to be done at the point of impact so changing the grunt sound would not be possible.

I really don't see any way of achieving what you're describing without severe side effects or other bad tradeoffs.

Knight 399 873
  • 7 Oct '17
 Alphonse

@Vin¢ said:
Another thing you're requiring is that the drag be detected before the release phase (so that the grunt can play).

You didn't read the full post, did you?

The existing grunt already plays on release.

I explained how a second one could be added mid release. Also, in case you missed other relevant information, I'm talking about 2 grunt sounds, not just a single one nor a longer one.

Also, in regards to false positives and whatnot... The game already tricks you with sound queues. You hear a grunt and the other guy misses. Maybe you panic parried cuz your muscle memory is if sound > rmb. Or you hear a grunt and get hit a long time later (via dragging).

You'd still need to see the attack to confirm it's coming your way.

Knight 123 262
  • 1
  • 7 Oct '17
 Vin¢

@Alphonse said:
Also, in regards to false positives and whatnot... The game already tricks you with sound queues. You hear a grunt and the other guy misses. Maybe you panic parried cuz your muscle memory is if sound > rmb. Or you hear a grunt and get hit a long time later (via dragging).

What? That's not the same thing. Grunting indicates that the player hasn't feinted. This is 100% reliable. Grunting is not supposed to indicate that you will get hit, just that they haven't feinted. The grunt you're proposing will not be even close to 100% reliable for the reasons I mentioned. If your muscle memory is such that you hear the sound and then RMB, that's your own fault, because you're misinterpreting what the grunt is telling you.

Knight 399 873
  • 7 Oct '17
 Alphonse

The reasons you listed mostly apply to the sound playing out of sync.

Let me simplify my proposal so maybe it's easier to understand.

The grunt Im proposing is like 500ms long, roughly the length of a release phase for a 2H. It starts really high (caps) and decreases in intensity (lower case). Something like HHHAAGHHNNNNNNnnnnnnnnnggggg.

When the attack goes into release, you hear the first part of the grunt at full volume (this is what currently exists). If a set of known angle changes occur MID RELEASE, the game plays the rest of the grunt (the nnnnng lower in intensity). This would indicate a decel or weird drag.

I don't understand how this could possibly be confusing while you're fighting an opponent. If no such change in angle is detected, the grunt is kept short. Like what's already in the game.

If this is still too hard to comprehend I might edit a short video to illustrate it better.

Conscript 168 358
  • 1
  • 7 Oct '17
 NikolaiLudovik

After reading that Frise's guy comments and I saw "stay small" being repeated at the end, I just felt so much cringe because it reminded me of the Giru early-access drama. Jesus Christ, and I thought there won't be any more shit like this in the forums when the Alpha was out. But fuck, I was wrong.

Knight 123 262
  • 7 Oct '17
 Vin¢

@Alphonse said:
The reasons you listed mostly apply to the sound playing out of sync.

Let me simplify my proposal so maybe it's easier to understand.

The grunt Im proposing is like 500ms long, roughly the length of a release phase for a 2H. It starts really high (caps) and decreases in intensity (lower case). Something like HHHAAGHHNNNNNNnnnnnnnnnggggg.

When the attack goes into release, you hear the first part of the grunt at full volume (this is what currently exists). If a set of known angle changes occur MID RELEASE, the game plays the rest of the grunt (the nnnnng lower in intensity). This would indicate a decel or weird drag.

I don't understand how this could possibly be confusing while you're fighting an opponent. If no such change in angle is detected, the grunt is kept short. Like what's already in the game.

If this is still too hard to comprehend I might edit a short video to illustrate it better.

And what use would this be? At the point when the grunt becomes useful, you are already in a position whereby you can just look at the animation to see if they are decelerating. You've probably already pressed parry or done whatever you're planning on doing by this point, so I really don't see how this would be at all useful, and probably just obnoxious and annoying to have this sound play all the time.

1315 2881
  • 7 Oct '17
 Monsteri

It would have a use, and that's helping noobs learn the difference between a drag and an acceleration. It should click easier what's happening - a noob won't be able to look at the visuals of a drag and conclude 'hmm looks like I must parry a tad later!'

It's also just a simple audio clue that tells 'you died to a drag', it's effectively telling a mediocre player what he did wrong upon death.

Knight 331 456
  • 8 Oct '17
 TwistedFox

@Huggles said:

@DerFurst said:
If you can't chamber overhead drags aimed at the feet

You can, I've met quite a few who could. But the effort required and how dumb it looks to do is ridic.

Chambers dont require you to aim at any part of the enemies body, its just the right angle out of the 6 avaliable angles, and timing. Foot timings is just quite long.