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I can't read drags

Knight 147 159
  • 4 Oct '17
 MrBlackDragon

@Frise said:

@MrBlackDragon said:
I've tried the drag argument before Alphonse. Some of these people are OK with a broken game. Frise is one of those people, there's no point in arguing with him.

Yeah that's way more useful than actually discussing things and telling me why what I say is wrong.

Because you don't read what others are saying, and what little you DO manage to read you respond with the same "no no no you just gotta do this" Your doing the same thing with Alphonse as you did with me.

Knight 1269 3811
  • 4 Oct '17
 Frise

@Alphonse said:

@Frise said:
Look at your video. Meph was looking all the way up even during windup. You could clearly see that he was going for a Wessex.

Cool gamble.

Actually, he could've decel dragged to my left.

He could've accel dragged to my left.

He could've morphed into a stab.

And right until the grunt, he could've feinted.

Exactly. That's why dragging is so interactive and interesting. He could have mixed a few different moves to deceive you. And you could have reacted to anything he did. Now, obviously nobody can 100% consistently react properly to every single drag or offensive move, and that's necessary in order to have people kill each other (of course, as long as it doesn't become realistically imposible to react).

And by the time that his sword was on your right, you could no longer see it, that's true. But, by that time, it was also impossible for him to turn it into anything other than a Wessex.

I do, however, think that readability of the animations is an issue, but not in that example. And also not in the spear stab drags. Since you can parry attacks during their windup (and the parrybox lets you parry things that are not clipping you), in order to perform a stab drag you have to constantly keep it away from the opponent's body, thus telegraphing it a lot. And that's where it get hard to do a good drag against a good player, you have to very precise in order to telegraph it as little as possible, and the other player con force the parry, ending your drag attempt. Because of this needed precision, too, if you manage to react in time, it is easy to dodge the drag and get a free hit.

And all of that is why dragging is so expressive and interactive.

@Alphonse said:

But to argue that this drags shouldn't be in the game is to be in favor of lowering the skill ceiling and making the combat less special.

Where the hell did I argue that? Who did that in this thread? Please quote or link

Not you, but many people feel that way. Yeah, I kinda put that on you without realizing. Sorry.

@Ƭheodore said:
I think that wessex or "frise" drags should be removed if possible.

@kattalainen said:
Wessex drags are unacceptable though.

From my Frisedrag thread:

@ThunderDuck said:
Oh God the Chivalry PTSD. This shouldn't be in the game imho..

And of course, the numerous anti-drags thread.

btw @MrBlackDragon, if you're not gonna add to the discussion don't flood it. If you bring up any arguments at all, I'll spend my time responding to them and giving you my reasoning, like I always do. If you don't agree with it, that's fine, you don't have to and I frankly don't care. But you're just being annoying, honestly.

Count 4205 9821
  • 2
  • 4 Oct '17
 DerFurst

@Frise said:
And @DerFurst, what you state is true. It's a problem with chambers though, not with drags.

Imagine a game of 'rock, paper, scissors' which claimed that every item counters a specific item but is weak to another. However, in actuality, rocks are inconsistent in defeating scissors based on where your hand hits the opponent's scissor hand, and also had a chance to destroy paper based on an additional diceroll exclusive to rocks.

This is how the game balance feels right now with how easily drags can counter chambers. It's just not intuitive at all, and doesn't synergize well with the other mechanics. The devs themselves intended primarily for morphs to play the role of countering chambers, not dragging or accelerating at odd angles to make certain chamber angles nearly impossible.

Certain drags, like the Wessex drag and 360* spin drags (like on the other thread) definitely need to be removed. Drags, as a concept however, are fine, and add depth when they have proper visual feedback and counter-play. My main complaint is that chambering needs a rework to be able to counter y-axis angling of drags, and perhaps chambers need more forgiveness when it comes to drags or accels somehow.

Knight 23 48
  • 4 Oct '17
 babyben

@Frise said:

@Alphonse said:

But to argue that this drags shouldn't be in the game is to be in favor of lowering the skill ceiling and making the combat less special.

Where the hell did I argue that? Who did that in this thread? Please quote or link

Not you, but many people feel that way. Yeah, I kinda put that on you without realizing. Sorry.

@kattalainen said:
Wessex drags are unacceptable though.

You're doing the same to me now though, I never said drags shouldn't be in this game. Wessex drags does not equal ALL drags.

Knight 1269 3811
  • 4 Oct '17
 Frise

@kattalainen said:

@Frise said:

@Alphonse said:

But to argue that this drags shouldn't be in the game is to be in favor of lowering the skill ceiling and making the combat less special.

Where the hell did I argue that? Who did that in this thread? Please quote or link

Not you, but many people feel that way. Yeah, I kinda put that on you without realizing. Sorry.

@kattalainen said:
Wessex drags are unacceptable though.

You're doing the same to me now though, I never said drags shouldn't be in this game. Wessex drags does not equal ALL drags.

I quoted you specifically, I didn't imply that you're against drags. It was an example of how a lot of people want this complex drags removed.

Knight 399 873
  • 1
  • 4 Oct '17
 Alphonse

@Frise said:

He could have mixed a few different moves to deceive you.

Yes, and dragging is one of but 6 or 7 other mechanics.

And you could have reacted to anything he did.

Well, yes. The problem is that drags atm are improperly balanced due to implementation issues. Furthermore, when an opponent drags the most "complex" ones, you are restricted in how you can respond. Let me illustrate what I mean with the example of those spear stab drags.

You are looking at the guy in front of you. He stabs 2 feet above your head. You see the weapon go above your head, pass your model. What do you do?

  • If you just do nothing because your mind is elsewhere, you will get hit. Or not, it depends on how accurate the drag was.

  • If you want to engage the player but you've rarely ever seen these broken ass drags, you will think "Oh, it's a miss". Because it looks like a miss. You will probably try to regain initiative, except the stab will be dragged down and flinch you, because your windup won't finish in time and there are no trades.

  • If you're overly aggressive, aka., the gambler type, you will chamber. But who the fuck would consistently and willingly chamber what looks like a miss. Idk. More so if you're not specifically training these stabs (like you and Meph where when I recorded the video, i.e., you were both prepared to what was happening after a few tries).

  • If you're the panicky type, you will parry even if it looks like a miss. Mostly having to do with how the animation flickers the weapon model in front of your face even though it may not do any damage. At any rate, chances are you will mistime your block and the drag will hit you.

  • If you're the footwork type of guy, you will backpedal and maybe matrix a little. Most people will pull these drags with long weapons, so chances are you won't counter weapon length with just footwork, unless you are just gambling to sneak away and/or taking advantage of lighter classes.

Since you can parry attacks during their windup (and the parrybox lets you parry things that are not clipping you)

Eh, what? A) You parry the release of an attack (i.e., the damage dealing phase), not the windup. You chamber the release with your windup, so maybe that's what you meant? B) There is no parrybox. It's all about geometry and angles, not a fucking square window that magically lets you parry shit like in Chivalry.

If what you meant was parrying the early release (based on the windup animation), sort of running right into the hands of your opponent, then it's quite the contradiction. More so if you want to preserve the skill ceiling, lol. First, encouraging that as a more effective parry method is dumb because it looks retarded, kind of like a facehugging fest. I mean, just sprint forward in the vague direction of your opponent sounds like more of an exploit for ez parries.

[I'd be okay if this tactic was actually intended to change the momentum/initiative of the exchange (like you can parry/chamber earlier to throw in a quick counter), but to block shit more easily? Sure, it's effective. But it's dumb.]

And not only is it dumb, it's almost as ineffective as staying still and trying to block, or backpedaling or whatever you may try. You get similar issues with any other attack animation. The interpolation is so jumpy than even the tiniest motions are exaggerated and poorly transmitted to your opponent.

If 60hz sv tickrate, constant 62 fps and 30 ms ping are not enough to read animations, then these things need to be optimized further.

@Frise said:
I quoted you specifically, I didn't imply that you're against drags. It was an example of how a lot of people want this complex drags removed.

You've repeatedly agreed with some of us, that certain drags need more polishing to be more readable.

I skimmed through the other posts, but none of them are against dragging per se. Just about their current implementation. Most people who are against drags think that way due to how unrealistic they look (from a gameplay PoV based on real life) and a lot more are actually against them because if they look wonky, as they do (and you partially agreed with this), you can't consistently react to them.

It's called a straw man fallacy and it makes for poor arguments. More so if the guy using a straw man is not even aware he's doing that (maybe due to poor reading comprehension -I'm looking at you, Uruguayan education).

As a general tip, if you want to argue your specific point of view in regards to what other people are thinking or saying, sort of like, a general counter argument, you should not reply or address specific individuals unless you want to reply to their specific ideas. Not just a vague notion, because then it's just mixing oranges and apples.

Knight 1269 3811
  • 4 Oct '17
 Frise

You can parry weapons during their late windup. Which is why you can't do z-stabs in facehug range like in Chivalry. And when you parry, the weapon doesn't have to actually hit you for it to get parried. It can be near you and it'll get parried.

And of course I agree with some points. I'm not here to blindly defend drags. I do agree that the animations need a rework. I don't agree that it's impossible to react to these drags.

Wolf and Meph do some very good stab drags, and I never have to gamble to defend against them. They hit me with them a lot of times when I fail to defend against them, but that doesn't mean it's a gamble. It just means I made a mistake.

You forgot about one thing in your bullet point list: You defend it without gambling it.

Chambering a stab drag isn't a gamble, it's just kinda hard. Parrying it isn't a gamble either, and it's not even hard. Stop with the gamble speech.

In my first comment I gave you ways to defend against these drags and my reasoning as to why they are not impossible to react and you went all ragey with me. You brought up some good stuff with the animation thingy but saying that defending against drags is a gamble is just juvenile.

Knight 399 873
  • 4 Oct '17
 Alphonse

@Frise said:
You can parry weapons during their late windup.

No, you can't. Tracers are drawn only when the attack enters the release. So technically, you're probably just parrying the early release thinking it's the windup due to how animations look. Just look at some duel footage in slow motion. There's some showdebug commands that may show precise attack states, but the font is tiny af so it's hard to read them.

Wolf and Meph do some very good stab drags, and I never have to gamble to defend against them. They hit me with them a lot of times when I fail to defend against them, but that doesn't mean it's a gamble. It just means I made a mistake.

Gamble, prediction, read. They're all synonyms in the context of having made a mistake (or not) with varying degrees of certainty. The bare miss, the lucky parry, etc. I call them gambles because my whole point was that you can't predict, react or read shit due to wonkiness, turning defense into a gamble. No need to be all defensive.

I swear I read your comments about "certainty" (in relation to "reacting" to stuff) as if you've never been caught by surprise with some unseen drag.

If it takes several tries to learn how to react to weird shit, then the problem with the game is perception (swing coming this way, then changing that way), not execution (aiming, timing). Though they are both related, a flawless execution can only be achieved if the perception side of things is in working order.

Think of CS:GO. You turn around a corner, there's this guy looking down with his weapon holstered. You perceive him in a less than ideal position, and decide to take aim and fire, or take cover. If, before you can execute either decision, that guy kills you because he turned up and loading a clip in 10 frames, then your execution wasn't entirely at fault. You failed to take cover or shoot faster because your understanding was made unclear do to shitty code.

Knight 1269 3811
  • 5 Oct '17
 Frise

@Alphonse said:
Gamble, prediction, read. They're all synonyms in the context of having made a mistake (or not) with varying degrees of certainty. The bare miss, the lucky parry, etc. I call them gambles because my whole point was that you can't predict, react or read shit due to wonkiness, turning defense into a gamble. No need to be all defensive.

Sure, then every parry and chamber is a gamble. Everything you do has some risk to it. We call it a gamble when you do something without being sure whether or not it's gonna be succesful, hoping you're lucky. If you attack someone without initiative hoping they're gonna feint you, that's a gamble. If you see your opponent stabbing and try to chamber it, but then your opponent drags it, you simply made a mistake. Your opponent deceived you.

Gamble and prediction go hand in hand. Gamble and read don't, though.

If you see that your opponent is performing a Wessex, because they are looking upwards while doing a horizontal slash, and their weapon has already passed to your other side, then you're 100% certain they're gonna wessex you.

If your opponent goes for a side-stab and you try to parry it, but they quickly C-drag it to your other side, you didn't gamble, you just made a mistake. You actually thought he was performing a side-stab.

Now, if you see that he's going for a side-stab but assume he's going to C-drag it, so you parry to the opposite side instead, that's a gamble.

Making up your own definitions is the perfect way to get nowhere in a discussion.

Knight 399 873
  • 3
  • 5 Oct '17
 Alphonse

If you see that your opponent is performing a Wessex, because they are looking upwards while doing a horizontal slash

A) You're proposing different tactics to deal with something I can't consistently even see or track with my own eyes. I wished I could see the blade clearly at every frame of its animation, but the game just doesn't look like that on my end, less so in face hug.

B) Most directional strikes start with the windup of a horizontal slash. You're not thinking "Oh, it's a wessex". You only know it's a wessex a posteriori. That means, after the player is committed to an action. After you see the weapon flash by or whatever.

Anyway, I'm not making up definitions. You don't like calling it a gamble, and that's fine by me. I will call it a gamble all I fucking want thanks to math.

Counting the frames of that delayed slash by Meph, the swing starts as a slash (while looking up, granted), then it changes direction in the last 6 frames before my client registers I received damage. The vid I uploaded is actually 30 fps, so 6 frames x 2 (cause the game runs at 60 fps). That's 12 TWELVE frames total, which makes a 200 ms window for reacting. I had already panic parried so I was never going to double parry in time. Let's say I didn't panic parry, that I was just strafing to get out of the swing or maybe expecting to parry at the last second. Your client sends a "IM PARRYING" packet or "I'm strafing" with a 20 ms delay (with a ping of 40 ms). So let's subtract this.

The average human reaction to visual stimuli is 250 ms. In order to read the wonky animations I get, unless I'm fully prepared (like you propose) I need to react in 200 ms - 20 ms = 180 ms. Tracking a small object wildly changing directions (aggravated by FOV distortion) in 180 ms is a fucking gamble in any game you want to pick.

Considering the basics of parrying as well ("you should aim properly and parry at the last second") there's a huge difference in concept and reaction times when expecting a wessex OR a fast drag, or anything in between.

So, sorry for calling all this a gamble. But it's a fucking gamble.

All your suggestions do is provide you a little leeway to be slower in your response. Sure, they help. But not every time. The fact stands that to make a last second adjustment you may need to react as a 15yo with 20/20 vision on coke. Making things even harder is the fact that one very easy and common practice is to morph/feint/body feint to get just into range or force a panic, then delay the attack, correct? At facehug, these drags are harder to read. So the overall spirit of how to defend is great (and obvious if you've ever played Chivalry), but in practice there are too many cases where it's pretty much useless.

What Mordhau wants are believable fights, not anime I teleported behind you bullshit kind of shit, not near-instant hits. Feints, morphs, double parries, etc. are all designed with such timings that you can read them and react to them. How? Well, first they're designed with human reaction in mind. Then there are mechanics so you don't have to be super fast (like footwork and active parry window).

Yet, some of these drags seem to be the exception. I don't see why they should stay the way they are.

396 454
  • 5 Oct '17
 JasonBourne

Frise vs GIRU Dana make it happen!

Knight 1269 3811
  • 5 Oct '17
 Frise

@JasonBourne said:
Frise vs GIRU Dana make it happen!

I'd garb him, it's not even funny. Pussy doesn't dare ft10 me.

Baron 134 315
  • 5 Oct '17
 2cool2care

@Wolframio said:
https://youtu.be/RjRQjaKYmE0

Dude your vid is worth a thread. I'll remember this link

Knight 147 159
  • 5 Oct '17
 MrBlackDragon

@Frise said:

@Alphonse said:

@Frise said:
Look at your video. Meph was looking all the way up even during windup. You could clearly see that he was going for a Wessex.

Cool gamble.

Actually, he could've decel dragged to my left.

He could've accel dragged to my left.

He could've morphed into a stab.

And right until the grunt, he could've feinted.

Exactly. That's why dragging is so interactive and interesting. He could have mixed a few different moves to deceive you. And you could have reacted to anything he did. Now, obviously nobody can 100% consistently react properly to every single drag or offensive move, and that's necessary in order to have people kill each other (of course, as long as it doesn't become realistically imposible to react).

And by the time that his sword was on your right, you could no longer see it, that's true. But, by that time, it was also impossible for him to turn it into anything other than a Wessex.

I do, however, think that readability of the animations is an issue, but not in that example. And also not in the spear stab drags. Since you can parry attacks during their windup (and the parrybox lets you parry things that are not clipping you), in order to perform a stab drag you have to constantly keep it away from the opponent's body, thus telegraphing it a lot. And that's where it get hard to do a good drag against a good player, you have to very precise in order to telegraph it as little as possible, and the other player con force the parry, ending your drag attempt. Because of this needed precision, too, if you manage to react in time, it is easy to dodge the drag and get a free hit.

And all of that is why dragging is so expressive and interactive.

@Alphonse said:

But to argue that this drags shouldn't be in the game is to be in favor of lowering the skill ceiling and making the combat less special.

Where the hell did I argue that? Who did that in this thread? Please quote or link

Not you, but many people feel that way. Yeah, I kinda put that on you without realizing. Sorry.

@Ƭheodore said:
I think that wessex or "frise" drags should be removed if possible.

@kattalainen said:
Wessex drags are unacceptable though.

From my Frisedrag thread:

@ThunderDuck said:
Oh God the Chivalry PTSD. This shouldn't be in the game imho..

And of course, the numerous anti-drags thread.

btw @MrBlackDragon, if you're not gonna add to the discussion don't flood it. If you bring up any arguments at all, I'll spend my time responding to them and giving you my reasoning, like I always do. If you don't agree with it, that's fine, you don't have to and I frankly don't care. But you're just being annoying, honestly.

You're honestly not worth the time trying to discuss the game with. You give the same bs responses to anyone who has a problem with your thoughts on the game, specifically dragging, because god knows there's nothing wrong with dragging atm /sarcasm. You're asking people to react to dragging in a way the game currently doesn't support because it's in alpha. There are people on these forums that want to see this game IMPROVE on what has already been done. You're just defending an UNFINISHED ALPHA. As far as we know NOTHING is set in stone and everything will change as development continues. Stop defending something that WILL change, just like every other aspect of the game. Try to make suggestions on how it can be improved instead of defending an unfinished product.

Knight 1269 3811
  • 2
  • 5 Oct '17
 Frise

It's not like I actually agree on a lot of points about dragging, like the animations being deceiving, them being inconsistent with chambers and the netcode stuff alphonse brings.

It's not like i actually give reasons for my opinion instead of personally attacking you.

But hey, since proper discussion and reason is apparentely frowned upon, let's go:

Go back to being a sad failure at the game. Go ahead and complain that the game is broken when you lose and cry on the forums with the same autistic ideas that have been brought before.

Alternatively, keep playing for more than 2000 hours, and then when you realise you get absolutely fucked by everyone else, call the things that you can't do a 'gamble', and don't listen to the players who can actually reliably defend against these things and beat your ass with zero effort.

'cause actually being reasonable in a discussion is a fucking travesty amirite

My first comment in this thread was telling Alphonse how these drags could actually be reliably reacted to, and explaining why drags are a good part of the game.

He instantly went nuts on me as if I had raped his girlfriend or something. I tried so hard to not personally attack him when he's so bad at the game and ragequits whenever you do something he doesn't know how to react to.

And to top it all off, he brought up the fact that I agreed on some points as if it was a bad thing. What the fuck kind of retarded mongoloid way of thinking is this?

Knight 23 48
  • 5 Oct '17
 babyben

@Frise said:
It's not like i actually give ressons for my opinion

Your reasons seem to be 1: it raises the skill level, 2: stuff like "frisedrag" can be defended

1: I can agree that it makes the game more difficult in a certain way, and that certain drags do require certain skill to pull of. But at what cost? is it fun to play against? is it visually pleasing? Is it in line with what this game actually is supposed to be with "believable fights"(quote taken from kickstarter page) and not an acrobatics show?
This same argument also implies that chivalry has way higher skill level because it doesn't have the limitations on drags that mordhau has. In a dragging sense it's true, but dragging is not the number 1 point of this game. (I think? starting to doubt this)
You can also apply any random mechanic such as flying for example, and claim that "it raises the skill level" because in a way it does.

2: yes they can be defended, but again: is defending against exploits fun? notice I'm not saying all drags are exploits, but your frisedrag I certainly categorize as an exploit because you are hitting the opposite side of what your attack is supposed to.
I'll use For Honor as an example here: Cheesiest game I've ever played. Can the cheese be countered? yes, but god damn what boring gameplay it makes. Unless cheesing is what you are into.

You just simply like dragging techniques which is fine, and they do have a place in mordhau. But I think there already is a game out there which has complex drag-fights covered, and I don't want this game to become that.

Knight 1269 3811
  • 3
  • 5 Oct '17
 Frise

Is it fun to play against? Is it visually pleasing? To me, yes. That's very subjective though.

I think they are a necessary thing in the game because of the depth they add.

I do believe they could really use a lot of work to be more validated as game mechanics.

Drags aren't an easy to use cheese that makes fights one-dimensional and boring, it's a very interactive mechanic that allows an insane amount of expression on both players. There's a million different ways to do them and deal with them. And they're not unbalanced at all. These complex drags are insanely hard to do, and leave you very vulnerable if parried or if you simply miss (which the defendant can force via foot/bodywork).

People disregard them as invalid mechanics because they see them as "exploits". Are they exploits? Maybe, there's reason to think that. I don't think they are, not necessarily.

But if you analyse them as a mechanic, they're very balanced and important to the combat. The reason so many people are frustrated with them, is that again, they're not seen as valid game mechanics, not because they're actually broken.

If they were somehow made valid, maybe by forcefully turning them into a specific mechanic, I can assure you that they wouldn't be so hated.

but hey my reasoning is meaningless 'cause I don't blindly oppose drags and I actually want to discuss shit instead of winning internet points by arguing ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Knight 289 201
  • 5 Oct '17
 TheUprising

dragging is a much better mechanic for getting past a block than "pressing Q".

Knight 399 873
  • 5 Oct '17
 Alphonse

@Frise said:
He instantly went nuts on me as if I had raped his girlfriend or something. I tried so hard to not personally attack him when he's so bad at the game and ragequits whenever you do something he doesn't know how to react to.

And to top it all off, he brought up the fact that I agreed on some points as if it was a bad thing. What the fuck kind of retarded mongoloid way of thinking is this?

Are you fucking serious? Just how old are you? 15 years old?

I playtest the alpha to have some fun and provide feedback to the devs. You think I can just sit there and have fun while you teleport shitty unreadable attacks? You think I don't have other stuff to take care off?

You argued bullshit. Strawmans. Fallacies. All based on stuff I never said much less implied.

I ragequit? Are you fucking dumb? You play with 0ms ping, with packetloss. Your game clock is running at 120fps according to you, twice as mine, and I even explained how a drag is displayed for 12 frames requiring 180ms reaction.

And you want me to react to that shit? Are you delusional or just stupid?
You said I could do this and that to react. I told you, even using some basic algebra, why it's too hard. Of course you won't understand because your monitor has twice the refresh rate.

You are too immature or dumb to see things from other perspectives. And worse, you know shit about gamedev.

I hardly insulted you and now you called me bad at the game, what a fucking kid.

Knight 147 159
  • 5 Oct '17
 MrBlackDragon

@Frise said:
It's not like I actually agree on a lot of points about dragging, like the animations being deceiving, them being inconsistent with chambers and the netcode stuff alphonse brings.

It's not like i actually give reasons for my opinion instead of personally attacking you.

But hey, since proper discussion and reason is apparentely frowned upon, let's go:

I thought you were going somewhere with this but then this happened.

Go back to being a sad failure at the game. Go ahead and complain that the game is broken when you lose and cry on the forums with the same autistic ideas that have been brought before.

I stopped reading after this. You just spew insults. Anything else you have to say you can just save it. You're not worth the time anymore.