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I can't read drags

Knight 399 873
  • 1
  • 4 Oct '17
 Alphonse

This kind of stuff makes no sense to me. I want to get good but I can't parry an attack if it's shown for 30 frames and it's jumpy af.

Frise does this drag where he starts a lower swing from left to right, aiming at my right side, where I anticipate the attack to land, only to see it barely jump over my head and hit my left side in the last portion of the release. The weapon model literally disappears from my view, so I only manage to parry a few of them by turning to the other side and only if I'm lucky to time it right.

The sound cone also makes no sense, because I hear the swooosh coming from my right, I parry, nothing happens and I get hit on the left. Except the swooosh never crossed to my left ear channel.

Here's some ascii to illustrate how I perceive the height of the incoming attack and the basic direction of an attack in Mordhau.

wind up_________early release___________mid release___________impact
-->______________________________________?__________________
___________________ ->___________________?__________________
________________________________________?__________________
________________________________________?__________________->

And here's some footage.

I know I'm not used to the animations yet (not that I have any faith I'll get to know them, ever) so I just trust my old man senses.

Knight 685 1855
  • 1
  • 4 Oct '17
 ÐMontyleGueux

While most of us are used to drags which does make it hard to relate, i have to say great work on the footage.

The editing clearly shows the parts that seems strange to you and what's wrong with them. Way more interesting that the hundreds of "drags sucks" post.

The next big step in the alpha is about animations, perhaps the drags you showed there will 'fixed' or made more believable.

Knight 331 456
  • 1
  • 4 Oct '17
 TwistedFox

I'm not sure if it works anymore but in chiv the better parries were when you'd crouch and aim up.

Knight 399 873
  • 2
  • 4 Oct '17
 Alphonse

@ÐMontyleGueux said:
While most of us are used to drags

I'm used to most drags except the less obvious ones, the ones a player will use as a "killer move" to land damage (like a couple of feints, zig zag and decel drag, or riposte fast drag). The ones that catch you unable to use footwork effectively.

The keyword is consistency. If manipulating the tracer directions in sharper turns makes your opponent lose all track of the attack because the game visuals or the clients can't handle dragging, then what's the point?

Do I have to play at lan ping every time? Do I need to get a 144 hz monitor? Do I need to become a cocaine ridden 13yo Chinese marathonist just to handle a mid difficulty move?

@TwistedFox said:
I'm not sure if it works anymore but in chiv the better parries were when you'd crouch and aim up.

Yeah, it worked because parries were a joke. The thing is, crouching makes your head go lower. If you miss the parry, your opponent has your weakest point at optimal height. In Mordhau crouching to parry only works to stop uppercuts or for very telegraphed overheads.

Knight 399 873
  • 1
  • 4 Oct '17
 Alphonse

delet this

Knight 331 456
  • 1
  • 4 Oct '17
 TwistedFox

I feel like you could've parried the attack at 0:35, gotta aim higher, at the tip of the sword. The attack seems really unrealistic though.

You also don't need to aim anywhere precise to chamber it's just timing but I guess the animation could be improved.

I'm not sure if I'm helping but the attacks shown don't seem that broken, I could just be dumb af though.

EDIT: although it can be blocked I don't think this shit should hit you're right

Knight 1269 3811
  • 8
  • 4 Oct '17
 Frise

I'm chambering a lot of meph's drags in that video, and after you left we kept playing with the insane spear drags and with proper footwork and reflexes it definitely could be dealt with. And it was fun as fuck tbh.

For the Wessex, if you see that your opponent is doing a slash and aiming high, you know right there that he is gonna Wessex you. Then, you can either parry it to the side, or just run away from it and they'll miss every time, it's a free hit for you. Also if you chamber it, it's basically a free hit because of the position they're left in. I've had it done to me even by very mediocre players.

Wessex drag is extremely hard to do and if your opponent reacts to it, you're left in a very vulnerable spot.

And in that last clip where I eat 2 hat drags to the face: I was panic-chambering. You can clearly see that I was chambering way too early. I fucked up and I got punished for it.

This drags are the part of the game that is the most expressive, interactive, interesting and complex. Every millisecond you have to read your opponent's movements and react to them, and they have to react to that. It's what I love most about the game, personally.

And let's be fair, you left after like 10 minutes when we were playing with spears. This things need time and practice to be dealt with, and I don't think we want to lower the skill ceiling unnecessarily.

9 24
  • 4 Oct '17
 Meph

Man, that Meph guy does some insane drags.

Knight 331 456
  • 4 Oct '17
 TwistedFox

@Frise said:

@Alphonse said:
Frise does this drag

Delete this shit right now I am not joking.

E X P O S E D

Also I think he's just talking about how the animations look bad, which is going to be fixed soon anyway. Hopefully they don't get rid of these attacks though.

Knight 399 873
  • 4 Oct '17
 Alphonse

@Frise said
...

Your argument basically make little sense.

I'm arguing the animations are too sudden and have terrible interpolation, plus a severe lack of frames dedicated to refreshing the weapon model, rendering some attacks invisible. You want invisible attacks in the game? Okay...

Practice, footwork, reads, whatever. It all boils down to the way you see things and how readable the animations are. No attack from the real world looks like those spear drags.

It's not even a matter of skill ceiling. If you're a noob and the game makes no sense to your senses, you won't play it. Or you'll call them exploits, and Chivalry (minus desyncs) drags never looked as poorly as some of the ones in the video.

And if you try to be competitive, you can't do shit if you can't even make sense of it.

For the Wessex, if you see that your opponent is doing a slash and aiming high, you know right there that he is gonna Wessex you.

You are aware that in order to parry you need to look at the weapon attacking you, right? You can anticipate where the attack will come from, but in order to parry it, you need to see it. I've told you, repeatedly, that those drags are there and the next second the weapon is gone.

This drags are the part of the game that is the most expressive, interactive, interesting and complex.

Bullshit.

Knight 255 350
  • 4 Oct '17
 Ƭheodore

Drags are part of this game, but like reverses, I think that wessex or "frise" drags should be removed if possible. It's unintuitive and will drive off new players. Somebody will post a gif of it when the game is released and everybody will say it's just another chivalry.

Drags are good, but stupid unintuitive broken looking drags are bad

Count 4205 9821
  • 2
  • 4 Oct '17
 DerFurst

If you can't chamber overhead drags aimed at the feet, how in god's name can you chamber wessex drags that hit you on the complete opposite side of the body

the chamber mechanic needs some extreme help right now, because there's too many dragging techniques that easily circumvent the entire feature

if you can't reliably chamber due to unintuitive drags, there is no reliable way to defeat feints, and this game inches closer to being a literal chiv clone, meta and all.

Knight 23 48
  • 4 Oct '17
 babyben

@Ƭheodore said:
Drags are part of this game, but like reverses, I think that wessex or "frise" drags should be removed if possible. It's unintuitive and will drive off new players. Somebody will post a gif of it when the game is released and everybody will say it's just another chivalry.

Drags are good, but stupid unintuitive broken looking drags are bad

^This.
Chivalry players playing this game in the same manner that made people stop playing chivalry.
Granted with some work on the animations it might not look as wonky as it does now. Wessex drags are unacceptable though.

Knight 1269 3811
  • 5
  • 4 Oct '17
 Frise

@Alphonse said:
You are aware that in order to parry you need to look at the weapon attacking you, right? You can anticipate where the attack will come from, but in order to parry it, you need to see it. I've told you, repeatedly, that those drags are there and the next second the weapon is gone.

Look at your video. Meph was looking all the way up even during windup. You could clearly see that he was going for a Wessex. Even during the release you could have followed the weapon a bit and you would have parried it, with how forgiving the parry box is right now.

@Alphonse said:

@Frise said:
This drags are the part of the game that is the most expressive, interactive, interesting and complex.

Bullshit.

Flawless logic.

Being able to do so many different kinds of drags out of just the two attack types that the games has is beautiful. It is incredibly interactive, too. It's not like CS:GO's recoil system where you hone your skill and that's it, nothing your opponent is gonna have to react to. This insane drags are what let different players have widely varying playstyles.

Sure, there are technical issues, like the animations being deceiving and not being able to chamber drags consistently. But to argue that this drags shouldn't be in the game is to be in favor of lowering the skill ceiling and making the combat less special.

The game shouldn't be limited to its basic mechanics, 'cause in that case let's just get rid of the swing manipulation.

And @DerFurst, what you state is true. It's a problem with chambers though, not with drags.

Knight 17 63
Knight 331 456
  • 4 Oct '17
 TwistedFox

I think drags would be a lot more well-received if the game advertised it correctly so that the players don't feel tricked. People will buy into this medieval real-time first person game thinking that it will be realistic, with the 32 player warzone being the main focus. But then when people see that people are exploiting the real-time swing system they will quickly leave.

I don't use "exploit" in a negative way, and I know who the creators of the game are, but they could've handled this much better.

Getting rid of drags is impossible, but I am aware they are trying to get rid of the more difficult drags, but they are trying to please too many people. They need to find a balance of helping noobs understand what kind of game this is and also not lowering the skill ceiling. Lets just see if this animation update will help in this regard.

Knight 331 456
  • 4 Oct '17
 TwistedFox

@Wolframio said:
https://youtu.be/RjRQjaKYmE0

I loved the little poke at people who dislike feints there.

Knight 147 159
  • 1
  • 4 Oct '17
 MrBlackDragon

I've tried the drag argument before Alphonse. Some of these people are OK with a broken game. Frise is one of those people, there's no point in arguing with him.

EDIT: I should say I agree with Alphonse in that the animations are not nearly good enough to display where an attack is coming from, or headed.

Knight 1269 3811
  • 4 Oct '17
 Frise

@MrBlackDragon said:
I've tried the drag argument before Alphonse. Some of these people are OK with a broken game. Frise is one of those people, there's no point in arguing with him.

Yeah that's way more useful than actually discussing things and telling me why what I say is wrong.

Knight 399 873
  • 2
  • 4 Oct '17
 Alphonse

@Frise said:
Look at your video. Meph was looking all the way up even during windup. You could clearly see that he was going for a Wessex.

Cool gamble.

Actually, he could've decel dragged to my left.

He could've accel dragged to my left.

He could've morphed into a stab.

And right until the grunt, he could've feinted.

I couldn't see any shit clearly because it's already hard to track the weapon itself. Which is the whole point of my thread. The arms / shoulders don't blend in distinct ways to tell what's going to happen with more certainty. You know, certainty, that thing you need in order not to fucking gamble.

Body language on its own doesn't mean anything with the current freedom you have unless you are familiarized with your opponent's playstyle.

@Alphonse said:

@Frise said:
This drags are the part of the game that is the most expressive, interactive, interesting and complex.

Bullshit.

Flawless logic.

What do you want me to say? I'd argue body language, feinting, chambers, emotes, morphs, weapon and loadout selection are the more interactive and immersive elements of the gameplay. Drags are literally just getting your attack from point A to point B. How the fuck is that, in your words, the most expressive element in gameplay?

Sure, there are technical issues, like the animations being deceiving and not being able to chamber drags consistently.

Here's a rundown of this thread: I can't read drags [because the animations/netcode is at fault].

But to argue that this drags shouldn't be in the game is to be in favor of lowering the skill ceiling and making the combat less special.

Where the hell did I argue that? Who did that in this thread? Please quote or link, because to me you're just replying to an imaginary dude saying drags are unfair who never even entered this thread.

The game shouldn't be limited to its basic mechanics, 'cause in that case let's just get rid of the swing manipulation.

And here's another statement in line with the previous strawman. "just get rid of swing manipulation". Who even said that?