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Alpha Build #6 Discussion Thread

Duke 162 274
  • 2
  • 26 Sep '17
 BEACHES

@Tim_Fragmagnet said:

@Jax said:

Spear lowered stab windups by 25ms, increased stab release 25ms, decreased stab combo times by 100ms

  • needed buff, might be too much or might just be @moepork pushing my shit in. will continue to test

The 25ms change was much needed for the spear's thrusts.
The combo speed increase however, crushed and I both agree, it was too much.
You're probably getting dunked on by the memespeed combos.

As it stands however, I feel the spear thrusts are in a pretty good spot after this buff.
Can't really say much as to how further buffs of this nature would affect balance, but right now they do not feel needed.

My problem is it is not the type of buff the spear needs. It's needs to outrange the halbred/zwei. It doesn't atm.

The spear isn't for spamming fast attacks. It's about flinching in teamfights and range...

Duke 162 274
  • 1
  • 26 Sep '17
 BEACHES

whoops

Duke 162 274
  • 2
  • 26 Sep '17
 BEACHES

@Bang said:

The game doesn't reward "lame", it's just that whiny idiots lose to basic drags and feints and break down thinking that the actual serious meta is like that.

Don't strawman me - I have no problem with feints and drags. Active parry is inconsistent and starts only where your parry starts - you can't turn it towards an oncoming attack and block it, assuming it even goes off. Also, since active parry is only a cone in front of you, teamfighting is no longer about being a parry/riposte bot but about being a backpedal halberd player. Facehugging can be mitigated with fluid movement and knockback - which the game is lacking atm.

Edit: The skillgap in chivalry was centered around teamfighting and isn't as high in mordhau as I'd like it to be. In chivalry, if I die in a 1vX situation, I immediately recognize what I could've done better/differently. In mordhau, once I'm surrounded, there's hardly anything I can do.

Our team has this conversation daily. Teamfights seem very inconsistent with clashing involved. I've been clashing against back swings and other shit. It just feels so random 1vX.

988 6974
  • 26 Sep '17
 marox — Project Lead

@Jax said:
2. Active parry inconsistency:
Totally agree here - active parry doesn't work like it should, and feels hit-or-miss when trying to fight with or against it. In theory, you could be in a 3v1 with all your enemies in front of you, and use a stab chamber morphed into a strike to block all three enemies' attacks and hit one of them. Doesn't really function reliably at the moment, but in time I think they'll polish it up.
Fix: rework the underlying systems of active parry attacks, and add better audiovisual queues.

I'm not really sure what would be considered wrong with it, I've looked at the code several times and everything seems to check out, haven't seen any videos that illustrate the issue, so it's hard to say.

67 158
  • 26 Sep '17
 Flippy

@marox said:

@Jax said:
2. Active parry inconsistency:
Totally agree here - active parry doesn't work like it should, and feels hit-or-miss when trying to fight with or against it. In theory, you could be in a 3v1 with all your enemies in front of you, and use a stab chamber morphed into a strike to block all three enemies' attacks and hit one of them. Doesn't really function reliably at the moment, but in time I think they'll polish it up.
Fix: rework the underlying systems of active parry attacks, and add better audiovisual queues.

I'm not really sure what would be considered wrong with it, I've looked at the code several times and everything seems to check out, haven't seen any videos that illustrate the issue, so it's hard to say.

Myself and other Tempest nerds also think it acts wonky at times, but it could very easily be just because we're bad. I'll try to get some footage when I get home later today.

111 131
  • 26 Sep '17
 Bang

@marox said:
I'm not really sure what would be considered wrong with it, I've looked at the code several times and everything seems to check out, haven't seen any videos that illustrate the issue, so it's hard to say.

For example, say you have two enemies around you - one to the front and one 90 degrees to the side. I riposte the guy in front of me, turn towards the guy to the side, whom is attacking, and my active parry fails. It seems to work only in a small cone in front of you - originating from the point of riposte and it can't be easily manipulated around.

I suggest going old-school, unflinchable windup so team fighting is more dynamic and less about long sticks and backpedaling.

1315 2881
  • 26 Sep '17
 Monsteri

@marox said:

@Jax said:
2. Active parry inconsistency:
Totally agree here - active parry doesn't work like it should, and feels hit-or-miss when trying to fight with or against it. In theory, you could be in a 3v1 with all your enemies in front of you, and use a stab chamber morphed into a strike to block all three enemies' attacks and hit one of them. Doesn't really function reliably at the moment, but in time I think they'll polish it up.
Fix: rework the underlying systems of active parry attacks, and add better audiovisual queues.

I'm not really sure what would be considered wrong with it, I've looked at the code several times and everything seems to check out, haven't seen any videos that illustrate the issue, so it's hard to say.

It's most likely that there's no difference in animation between a riposte and a non-riposte + the riposte window being really small. People think they riposted when in fact they didn't. If after the new riposte animations people are still experiencing this issue, then it's safe to say that there is a problem.

988 6974
  • 26 Sep '17
 marox — Project Lead

@Bang said:
It seems to work only in a small cone in front of you - originating from the point of riposte and it can't be easily manipulated around.

Not from what I can tell, that part seems to work correctly, but keep in mind during actual release it is not active, only during windup/early release

111 131
  • 3
  • 26 Sep '17
 Bang

Do you think there's enough time to turn an active parry much before release? Maybe that's what people aren't used to.

Duke 5558 13284
  • 26 Sep '17
 Jax — Community Manager

@marox said:

@Jax said:
2. Active parry inconsistency:
Totally agree here - active parry doesn't work like it should, and feels hit-or-miss when trying to fight with or against it. In theory, you could be in a 3v1 with all your enemies in front of you, and use a stab chamber morphed into a strike to block all three enemies' attacks and hit one of them. Doesn't really function reliably at the moment, but in time I think they'll polish it up.
Fix: rework the underlying systems of active parry attacks, and add better audiovisual queues.

I'm not really sure what would be considered wrong with it, I've looked at the code several times and everything seems to check out, haven't seen any videos that illustrate the issue, so it's hard to say.

Id say it's just hard to tell where the active parries are - A teammate will be getting riposted and I'll go for a swing on the enemy's head and bounce off of said riposte. Maybe it does just come down to being able to tell what's actually going on, and instead of it being inconsistent it's just a readability issue.

1315 2881
  • 26 Sep '17
 Monsteri

Yeah, separate riposte animations that are easily identifiable would help so much.

Count 671 1131
  • 2
  • 26 Sep '17
 Zexis

-deleted old message-

@marox said:

@Bang said:
It seems to work only in a small cone in front of you - originating from the point of riposte and it can't be easily manipulated around.

Not from what I can tell, that part seems to work correctly, but keep in mind during actual release it is not active, only during windup/early release

did not know this. I thought the release of a riposte could also deflect weapons, if they made contact. I'm even more afraid to enter 1vX now heh

Knight 1388 3163
  • 1
  • 26 Sep '17
 Tim_Fragmagnet

@BEACHES said:
My problem is it is not the type of buff the spear needs. It's needs to outrange the halbred/zwei. It doesn't atm.

The spear isn't for spamming fast attacks. It's about flinching in teamfights and range...

3 identical thrusts from identical horizontal starting positions.

2 identical swings over the same angle thrust from earlier.
ragne.png

edit: in the second image, the top swing is actually the halberd. I mislabeled it without noticing.

I believe each of these hit tracers is 15cm apart.
It's also not taking into account the attack lunge.

I partially agree with your argument, while yes I would love to see the spear actually utilized to its full extent, that's only because right now it is visually gimped and held about a third of the way up the shaft with the thrusting arm, which is never done when using a spear with 2 hands.

It also appears to be using the exact same animations that the halberd is. (crushed pls)

However, the spear needed the windup buff right now because as it was before, it was just straight up losing stab fights when it shouldn't have. This buff made the weapon actually work.

In terms of the balance of giving the spear more reach? There's room for it, but it can be a tricky thing to balance.

That said however, the alternate grip makes it much easier to balance, one could give the spear's long grip the proper full thrust and reach, and just make it have slower attacks.
This would destroy its capability at close range, but that's what the alternate grip appears to be for anyway.

Knight 3313 6811
  • 26 Sep '17
 Bodkin

I remember day 1-3 when everyone was calling the spear op in the servers I was on.

I've really liked it since release, though I quickly learned to choke up on it if ever going into a direct confrontation. The speed buff definitely makes the normal mode more usable outside of support roles, and the choked version is an underrated beast.

Against medium armor and lower, the slashes when choked appear to have the same htk as stabs, yet no one knows this.

I'd need to verify it again and get good numbers, but I was consistently getting 3 slash kills on a Viking bot when practicing chambers.

Very underrated weapon tbh

Knight 1269 3811
  • 1
  • 26 Sep '17
 Frise

Yeah, it's not as bad as people make it up to be, specially considering it's supposed to be a support weapon, not a duel weapon. If you're good at dragged stabs and sidestabs, it can be really good. The buff was definitely needed though, and I personally think a stab damage buff would be welcome too.

Knight 2307 4188
  • 27 Sep '17
 Runagate

Also if you can morph your chambers consistently it becomes a lot more powerful.

96 128
  • 27 Sep '17
 Reapy

Thank you for the mouse settings! At first I was a bit reluctant about the upward stabs as well, I was using that upper arc for the diagonal attacks but I guess in honesty that was just me being inaccurate. After about 5 minutes or so it felt pretty natural, though had to concentrate on being a bit more precise with swings, and it also just feels good to have access to each thrust type too. Nice stuff.

Also the stamina and health toggles are great and now you can just sit in with the bot and try stuff out for as long as you want.

Knight 77 162
  • 27 Sep '17
 ArmedSpartan

Bring back the old Head Bobbing. Now it just feels like I'm floating. It doesn't fell right to me.

Knight 2307 4188
  • 1
  • 27 Sep '17
 Runagate

In case you haven't noticed, there's a headbob slider in the settings.

Knight 77 162
  • 27 Sep '17
 ArmedSpartan

Oh really? Thanks! I didn't notice that.