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Dragging and damage.

Sellsword 66 102
  • 22 Sep '17
 Judas_Iscariot

I understand dragging is a part of the game and unfortunately won't go away, but is it possible to make slow drags do less damage? You shouldn't be rewarded with 100% of the damage because you made your sword swing slower than an actual swing. It should have some form of diminishing return.

Duchess 6897 9885
  • 22 Sep '17
 Sir Zombie

No. For more details look at all the other threads about this exact topic.

Duke 2266 4010
  • 22 Sep '17
 Huggles

No, that's a terrible idea. Essentially what that says is that only the most obvious and easy to fucking parry strikes will do any decent damage. That just makes the game boring and inconsistent. It makes you feel like you are fighting against the game and it is something the devs wish to avoid.

Count 671 1131
  • 22 Sep '17
 Zexis

Couple reasons this is bad.

  • Inconsistent
  • Misconception that drags make attacks faster / slower

All dragging does is make your attack hit earlier or later in your attack release. Try turning your body towards and away from some imaginary target while swinging your arms the same way each time: that's all dragging is. In both Chivalry and less so in Mordhau, it's exaggerated to the point of being a bit unrealistic but it's never been about making your release faster or slower.

Now, even if you understand what dragging is, you might still say an attack should do the most damage in the middle of release and less at the beginning and end because of force. To that, I say look at point 1.

If drags are too egregious for any one weapon, they can be tweaked. This has already happened with the eveningstar.

Sellsword 66 102
  • 22 Sep '17
 Judas_Iscariot

I get what you are all saying and I do understand dragging, but even as a slow "release" you would be hitting your target a lot softer than what you would be doing on a normal swing. What is inconsistent is that you can "release" (lets be real, the whole swing is slower..) your attack slower and it still does the same amount as damage as a normal swing. On the other side of the fence, faster attacks should have a small increase in damage, much like a slower "release" should do less damage.

And this isn't an issue about blocking, we all get hit by drags.

Duchess 6897 9885
  • 22 Sep '17
 Sir Zombie

Not really nah

Duke 196 836
  • 4
  • 22 Sep '17
 Ser_Thank_You

Ok I see 2 possible 'fixes' that would alleviate your concerns.

-Weapons do different damage at different parts of the swing.-

Problem - This leads to major inconsistency during fights. Even in a 1v1 duel, you can never be sure how much damage you just did to the enemy. Right now, I KNOW if I hit him in the head x times and in the torso y times, he will die. Period. If I hit him with a variable damage swing.....I have no idea (even if I wasn't intending to drag that strike, I still get 'punished')

or

-Minimal/no mouse movement during a swing-

Problem - This completely removes one of the key aspects of the game, lowers the skill ceiling significantly, removes any hope of 1vX, makes chambers impossible, makes ripostes difficult, and basically just go play For Honor.

Knight 31 79
  • 23 Sep '17
 λdambomb

Its like the difference between planting your feet and swinging at a guy in front of you or to a different guy to the side of you. Same amount of power but they will land at different times.

Sellsword 66 102
  • 23 Sep '17
 Judas_Iscariot

@Ser_Thank_You said:

Problem - This leads to major inconsistency during fights. Even in a 1v1 duel, you can never be sure how much damage you just did to the enemy. Right now, I KNOW if I hit him in the head x times and in the torso y times, he will die. Period. If I hit him with a variable damage swing.....I have no idea (even if I wasn't intending to drag that strike, I still get 'punished')

Wouldn't you know hitting someone with a decreased swing would be slightly less damage than a normal swing, so you know if you hit someone in the torso X amount of times and one of them is a decreased swing, you would need to do more damage? I see where you are coming from with doing it by accident and being punished though, even though I don't like dragging I don't think it will ever not be in games with free flowing combat and it would .

Thanks for actually posting some logic on the matter, usually when I bring this up it is just insults or biased views because the majority are former Chivalry ballerinas, but what you said about accidental drags and being punished for it makes perfect sense on why lower damage might not be a good idea.

Sellsword 66 102
  • 23 Sep '17
 Judas_Iscariot

@Sir Zombie said:
Not really nah

Sorry, I was not replying to you.

Knight 1269 3811
  • 1
  • 24 Sep '17
 Frise

Grab a big stick in real life and do the following experiment:

With an overhead swing, hit the top of a table. Notice how much time it took you to hit it.

Now, with the same overhead swing and the same speed, starting from the exact same position, hit the bottom of the table's leg. Notice that this took more time to hit, but impacted with the same force.

That's dragging.

42 54
  • 24 Sep '17
 Sverth

@Frise said:
Grab a big stick in real life and do the following experiment:

With an overhead swing, hit the top of a table. Notice how much time it took you to hit it.

Now, with the same overhead swing and the same speed, starting from the exact same position, hit the bottom of the table's leg. Notice that this took more time to hit, but impacted with the same force.

That's dragging.

Ok after breaking my table i have realized this is wrong. The second strike using the same power. The stick had more time to accelerate and did more damage to my table's leg.
Now i don't even think its possible to try and simulate something close to a slow drag if we really wanna go to high lengths to justify it we can call it a form of feinting.
However i still think feinting is horrible mechanic in its current form
if a game mechanic support screwed up physics, looks bad and and bring controversy what's the point ?

Its not hard to think about skill based game mechanics so why we need to add/defend one that break the laws of physics and just look wonky ?

Knight 1269 3811
  • 1
  • 24 Sep '17
 Frise

@Sverth said:
Its not hard to think about skill based game mechanics so why we need to add/defend one that break the laws of physics and just look wonky ?

Because it's what makes the combat interesting, and if you can't look through the forums and read any of the hundred topics about this exact thing, then you clearly shouldn't be discussing it. You want flashy combat where every action is locked and limited? Go play For Honor.

What you say about the acceleration is not true anyway, because you give the strike force at the beginning of it, not throughout it. Dragging makes the combat feel very similar to HEMA in feel, not in visuals, because it allows the freedom to reposition your strikes and vary your timings to screw with your opponent's defense, which is something you do not find in any other combat system.

42 54
  • 1
  • 24 Sep '17
 Sverth

@Frise said:

@Sverth said:
Its not hard to think about skill based game mechanics so why we need to add/defend one that break the laws of physics and just look wonky ?

Because it's what makes the combat interesting, and if you can't look through the forums and read any of the hundred topics about this exact thing, then you clearly shouldn't be discussing it. You want flashy combat where every action is locked and limited? Go play For Honor.

What you say about the acceleration is not true anyway, because you give the strike force at the beginning of it, not throughout it. Dragging makes the combat feel very similar to HEMA in feel, not in visuals, because it allows the freedom to reposition your strikes and vary your timings to screw with your opponent's defense, which is something you do not find in any other combat system.

Honestly its only mordhau & bannerlord for me.
And i don't know how you can see a connection to HEMA with dragging
you can reposition your attack into a thrust that is simulated by morphs. And you can reposition it after your opponent parry that's simulated by chambers. So what's dragging simulating ?

"because it allows the freedom to reposition your strikes and vary your timings to screw with your opponent's defense, which is something you do not find in any other combat system."
Well you can find it in chiv. This is oddly sound like feinting like i have said in my previous post you can pretend slow drags are actually just feints but then we already have feinting system.
This is not the point if we try really hard we can fool ourselves to believe feinting is something that is possible to do/realistic but i still think its bad game mechanic for the reasons in my previous post. Its make the combat interesting you say? well that's your opinion many other people think otherwise
it clearly break the immersion for many players however dragging is not something that is going to make me stop playing i have already got used to it in chiv but many others didn't.

Duke 5558 13284
  • 24 Sep '17
 Jax — Community Manager

Drags aren't an issue if you learn to parry properly. Simple as that.

Knight 83 115
  • 24 Sep '17
 Mufflin

The dragfags won't listen to any sort of logic, they must kill the game with their nonsense attacks.

Knight 147 159
  • 24 Sep '17
 MrBlackDragon

Oh dragging is inconsistent? well I have a great fucking way to take care of that, don't drag unless you want a damage penalty. That takes care of your inconsistency. Don't drag, get the same results every time.
People defending broken mechanics in the name of inconsistency is what stop slasher games from getting any better.

Knight 1269 3811
  • 24 Sep '17
 Frise

Why the fuck do people buy games with mechanics they don't like? It just seems stupid tbh lol

Duchess 6897 9885
  • 25 Sep '17
 Sir Zombie

@MrBlackDragon said:
Oh dragging is inconsistent? well I have a great fucking way to take care of that, don't drag unless you want a damage penalty. That takes care of your inconsistency. Don't drag, get the same results every time.
People defending broken mechanics in the name of inconsistency is what stop slasher games from getting any better.

Dragging is a good thing. Devs have said that multiple times.
You dont like it? Just parry.

Knight 147 159
  • 25 Sep '17
 MrBlackDragon

@Sir Zombie said:

@MrBlackDragon said:
Oh dragging is inconsistent? well I have a great fucking way to take care of that, don't drag unless you want a damage penalty. That takes care of your inconsistency. Don't drag, get the same results every time.
People defending broken mechanics in the name of inconsistency is what stop slasher games from getting any better.

Dragging is a good thing. Devs have said that multiple times.
You dont like it? Just parry.

I'm stating my problem with the mechanic. It's not something I like so I'm protesting it.

Dragging is OK but as a function but should come at a cost/risk like any other mechanic. (reduced damage at end of swing). Saying that makes things inconsistent is bs. If you are dragging your weapon you will consistently do reduced damage.