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Skill floor is too LOW

Knight 936 952
  • 25 Sep '17
 afiNity

@crushed said:

@afiNity said:
As much as I like the complexity of the mechanics in this game, I think they might become a problem in the long run.
Chiv only worked for noobs/casual players because they ignored many of the mechanics, which led to very different metas between competitive and casual play and this might become true for Mordhau as well.
Ideally a game should be easy to learn (or at least easy to get into) but hard to master, while Mordhau is really hard to get into. 99% of the people in the alpha are ex-chiv-players, so for us it isn't that much of a deal due to our previous experience.
But Mordhau is actually much more complex and harder to learn than Chiv so I'm a bit worried how completely new players to the genre will perform and how many of them will rq cause of frustration.
There are games from the melee genre that are much easier to learn but still have an extremely high skill ceiling. I wish Mordhau was a bit more like that.
I'm not saying that the mechanics should be changed but... what's the point of a super good game if only a couple chiv nerds are going to play it. A high skill ceiliing doesn't necessarily have to come from super many different mechanics. Just some thoughts.

I have to disagree, have you actually seen any new players play the game? For example some of the content creators/streamers, from what i've seen, the basics of attacking, defense (parrying) and flinching is easily learned and understood quickly. It was actually satisfying to watch how quickly they improved within an hour of playing compared to when they started, despite no actual tutorials and such.

I'm glad if this is the case.
However, the point is that Mordhau has a lot of mechanics that are not intuitive per se. In a game like CS (or also Quake, JKA, or actually most multiplayer action games) you run around and shoot. The necessary skills are basically aiming, teamwork, footwork, timing and map-awareness, things that are very easy to be understood, both for the players and the spectators.
Of course the meta between casual and competitive players are different, the mechanics however are mostly the same, just executed on a different skill-level. In Chiv however certain mechanics were not present in casual play because they were not balanced for casual play. That's the reason why there were no feints and only basic drags in casual play, because less than 1% of people on public servers were able to read them. I think thats a fundamental difference between casual and competitive play in chiv compared to how it is in games like CS or Quake etc. In Quake you win against worse players cause you got better movement or because you're better at shooting, two things that even the worst noob can perform, just on a different skill-level. In Mordhau you need to learn special mechanics like chambering, clashing, ftp, cftp etc which are (some more, some less) both hard to learn for a player and hard to understand for a spectator if you don't want to be complete trash. I don't think that this is going to be intuitive for new players.
I'm not saying that the game should be balanced around casual play, but the basic mechanics should work for both casual and competitive play. In chiv you could win 99% of the fights on public by feint-spam (until you get kicked).
The point is that the fundamental mechanics in other games are much easier to get into than in Mordhau. In CS the mechanics are easy to learn but hard to master, while in Mordhau there is not really a way that a new player will understand what chambering or clashing is without the help of a very in-depth tutorial.
Again, I'm glad if I'm wrong but I'm kinda pessimistic about the patience of most players nowadays.

Knight 697 1611
  • 25 Sep '17
 das

Seconded.

My brother never hit rank 30 in Chiv, he duels better than 90% of west coasters and can race to 30 in FFA pretty fast.

My friend who has never made it out of rank 15 quickly learned to play and manage a neutral KD.

Duke 986 1381
  • 25 Sep '17
 PadanFain

Well said crush

Knight 1269 3811
  • 25 Sep '17
 Frise

Well CS has a lot of hidden mechanics that you need to learn to get good, recoil control, sidestepping, jumpshots, momentum, strafing, scope accuracy, timings... To be fair it's quite a mess.

In Mordhau you have 2 types of attacks, parries, kicks, chambers and feints. Compared to fighting games like For Honor, that's nothing, really (and For Honor was very casual friendly)

The high level meta of Mordhau consists of combining and utilising these basic things properly. Hell, the most difficult things to do are sidedrags like waterfalls, wessex and the frisedrag(tm), and those are done just by moving your mouse and some footwork.

Sure, the inner workings of things are quite complex, but those are the kind of things that you incorporate with time.

A competitive player's skill consists primarily of footwork, reading, dragging and mind games, which are things that you can develop pretty naturally.

An issue I see though, is that some high level moves are very hard to understand from a new player's point of view, and I think a kill cam would help newbies understand how they got killed.

Knight 3153 7400
  • 25 Sep '17
 Punzybobo

@Frise said:
Well CS has a lot of hidden mechanics that you need to learn to get good, recoil control, sidestepping, jumpshots, momentum, strafing, scope accuracy, timings... To be fair it's quite a mess.

half of the CSGO "mechanics" you listed are just quirks and bugs of the Source Engine

Knight 1269 3811
  • 25 Sep '17
 Frise

@Punzybobo said:

@Frise said:
Well CS has a lot of hidden mechanics that you need to learn to get good, recoil control, sidestepping, jumpshots, momentum, strafing, scope accuracy, timings... To be fair it's quite a mess.


half of the CSGO "mechanics" you listed are just quirks and bugs of the Source Engine

They still are things you have to learn and very important aspects of a good player's skillset so what's your point?

Mercenary 83 73

Well what do u guys expect? It's a game from melee comp players for melee comp players. I like the game but what I've learned in my little 30h is, that this game is not about realism. So drags will stay, feints will stay and spins too. The only thing they removed (what u can at least see) is reverse stuff. Ofc they changed more things and it's ofc not chiv but the old chiv tactics are still working. Spam-feints for the win for example. I hoped the focus will be less on feints but more on chambering. But the opposite is happening.
There will be no new comp scene. It'll stay the same like in chiv. And again we'll have a splitted community. The casuals and the comps. I hope u devs proof me that I'm wrong. Sure it's an alpha yet but these are some basicly things which wont get "fixed" I guess. You've done a great job @devs but this game will be nothing more than frustrating for newbies. Look a chiv, just. 1.3% of the players played at least 80h. I'm afraid the same will happen with mordhau. Well, that's just my opinion guys.

1315 2881
  • 26 Sep '17
 Monsteri

I think currently the only mechanic that is not intuitive is chambering. There are some arbitrary rules, but for the most part a new player won't even notice their existence.

Duke 2266 4010
  • 26 Sep '17
 Huggles

Clashing might also be sorta "wtf" for noob as well.

Sellsword 31 28
  • 26 Sep '17
 LemonTroutsky

@afiNity said:

@crushed said:

@afiNity said:
As much as I like the complexity of the mechanics in this game, I think they might become a problem in the long run.
Chiv only worked for noobs/casual players because they ignored many of the mechanics, which led to very different metas between competitive and casual play and this might become true for Mordhau as well.
Ideally a game should be easy to learn (or at least easy to get into) but hard to master, while Mordhau is really hard to get into. 99% of the people in the alpha are ex-chiv-players, so for us it isn't that much of a deal due to our previous experience.
But Mordhau is actually much more complex and harder to learn than Chiv so I'm a bit worried how completely new players to the genre will perform and how many of them will rq cause of frustration.
There are games from the melee genre that are much easier to learn but still have an extremely high skill ceiling. I wish Mordhau was a bit more like that.
I'm not saying that the mechanics should be changed but... what's the point of a super good game if only a couple chiv nerds are going to play it. A high skill ceiliing doesn't necessarily have to come from super many different mechanics. Just some thoughts.

I have to disagree, have you actually seen any new players play the game? For example some of the content creators/streamers, from what i've seen, the basics of attacking, defense (parrying) and flinching is easily learned and understood quickly. It was actually satisfying to watch how quickly they improved within an hour of playing compared to when they started, despite no actual tutorials and such.

I'm glad if this is the case.
However, the point is that Mordhau has a lot of mechanics that are not intuitive per se. In a game like CS (or also Quake, JKA, or actually most multiplayer action games) you run around and shoot. The necessary skills are basically aiming, teamwork, footwork, timing and map-awareness, things that are very easy to be understood, both for the players and the spectators.
Of course the meta between casual and competitive players are different, the mechanics however are mostly the same, just executed on a different skill-level. In Chiv however certain mechanics were not present in casual play because they were not balanced for casual play. That's the reason why there were no feints and only basic drags in casual play, because less than 1% of people on public servers were able to read them. I think thats a fundamental difference between casual and competitive play in chiv compared to how it is in games like CS or Quake etc. In Quake you win against worse players cause you got better movement or because you're better at shooting, two things that even the worst noob can perform, just on a different skill-level. In Mordhau you need to learn special mechanics like chambering, clashing, ftp, cftp etc which are (some more, some less) both hard to learn for a player and hard to understand for a spectator if you don't want to be complete trash. I don't think that this is going to be intuitive for new players.
I'm not saying that the game should be balanced around casual play, but the basic mechanics should work for both casual and competitive play. In chiv you could win 99% of the fights on public by feint-spam (until you get kicked).
The point is that the fundamental mechanics in other games are much easier to get into than in Mordhau. In CS the mechanics are easy to learn but hard to master, while in Mordhau there is not really a way that a new player will understand what chambering or clashing is without the help of a very in-depth tutorial.
Again, I'm glad if I'm wrong but I'm kinda pessimistic about the patience of most players nowadays.

You think this because you've learned a lot of the mechanics... In CS, you didn't describe knife-running or noscoping or jump-crouching etc etc etc...

The core mechanics in Mordhau, run around, slash people, parry. All of those other mechanics you listed are for the initiated, but they're not the baseline of a new player. You don't need to know anything about that stuff to get started... In fact, if you don't get bogged down with trying to do too much, you'll probably have a much easier time learning how to do it all. You'll accidentally chamber and clash often enough to where you may start learning how to do it on purpose. I'd say the majority of players' ability to chamber effectively is feeling it out, which just comes naturally over time...

Moral of my story, don't tell noobs they have to learn about mechanics beyond "hit someone with your sword."

Duke 2266 4010
  • 26 Sep '17
 Huggles

@LemonTroutsky said:

@afiNity said:

@crushed said:

@afiNity said:
As much as I like the complexity of the mechanics in this game, I think they might become a problem in the long run.
Chiv only worked for noobs/casual players because they ignored many of the mechanics, which led to very different metas between competitive and casual play and this might become true for Mordhau as well.
Ideally a game should be easy to learn (or at least easy to get into) but hard to master, while Mordhau is really hard to get into. 99% of the people in the alpha are ex-chiv-players, so for us it isn't that much of a deal due to our previous experience.
But Mordhau is actually much more complex and harder to learn than Chiv so I'm a bit worried how completely new players to the genre will perform and how many of them will rq cause of frustration.
There are games from the melee genre that are much easier to learn but still have an extremely high skill ceiling. I wish Mordhau was a bit more like that.
I'm not saying that the mechanics should be changed but... what's the point of a super good game if only a couple chiv nerds are going to play it. A high skill ceiliing doesn't necessarily have to come from super many different mechanics. Just some thoughts.

I have to disagree, have you actually seen any new players play the game? For example some of the content creators/streamers, from what i've seen, the basics of attacking, defense (parrying) and flinching is easily learned and understood quickly. It was actually satisfying to watch how quickly they improved within an hour of playing compared to when they started, despite no actual tutorials and such.

I'm glad if this is the case.
However, the point is that Mordhau has a lot of mechanics that are not intuitive per se. In a game like CS (or also Quake, JKA, or actually most multiplayer action games) you run around and shoot. The necessary skills are basically aiming, teamwork, footwork, timing and map-awareness, things that are very easy to be understood, both for the players and the spectators.
Of course the meta between casual and competitive players are different, the mechanics however are mostly the same, just executed on a different skill-level. In Chiv however certain mechanics were not present in casual play because they were not balanced for casual play. That's the reason why there were no feints and only basic drags in casual play, because less than 1% of people on public servers were able to read them. I think thats a fundamental difference between casual and competitive play in chiv compared to how it is in games like CS or Quake etc. In Quake you win against worse players cause you got better movement or because you're better at shooting, two things that even the worst noob can perform, just on a different skill-level. In Mordhau you need to learn special mechanics like chambering, clashing, ftp, cftp etc which are (some more, some less) both hard to learn for a player and hard to understand for a spectator if you don't want to be complete trash. I don't think that this is going to be intuitive for new players.
I'm not saying that the game should be balanced around casual play, but the basic mechanics should work for both casual and competitive play. In chiv you could win 99% of the fights on public by feint-spam (until you get kicked).
The point is that the fundamental mechanics in other games are much easier to get into than in Mordhau. In CS the mechanics are easy to learn but hard to master, while in Mordhau there is not really a way that a new player will understand what chambering or clashing is without the help of a very in-depth tutorial.
Again, I'm glad if I'm wrong but I'm kinda pessimistic about the patience of most players nowadays.

You think this because you've learned a lot of the mechanics... In CS, you didn't describe knife-running or noscoping or jump-crouching etc etc etc...

The core mechanics in Mordhau, run around, slash people, parry. All of those other mechanics you listed are for the initiated, but they're not the baseline of a new player. You don't need to know anything about that stuff to get started... In fact, if you don't get bogged down with trying to do too much, you'll probably have a much easier time learning how to do it all. You'll accidentally chamber and clash often enough to where you may start learning how to do it on purpose. I'd say the majority of players' ability to chamber effectively is feeling it out, which just comes naturally over time...

Moral of my story, don't tell noobs they have to learn about mechanics beyond "hit someone with your sword."

This is actually the most ineffective way to learn something, even if it is more fun.

You'd certainly get a lot better a lot quicker if you had an incredibly experienced player their to watch you play, tell you all your errors, and how to improve upon them. And then focusing on training those specific errors by training rather than just vague pointers and throwing you back into the chaos.

When you practice basketball, do you just play for thousands of hours? Or do you work on rebounds, layups, free throws, boxing out, etc as part of drills? Of course you need to actually play the game but to learn effectively you also need drills and to focus on what you are specifically doing.

Sellsword 254 310
  • 26 Sep '17
 Redeaux

I just want bigger maps and fists to be buffed.

Knight 27 29
  • 26 Sep '17
 FoxyTorryn

Good tutorials will go a long way for helping players like me who didn't bother much with chivalry. The main reason I've played this already more than I've played chivalry is because it felt somewhat more fluid if a bit rough around the edges.

In addition to tutorials covering each of the mechanics (especially chambering) it would be nice to see the development of trials and challenges in a training mode, much like going through drills in actual martial arts. I loved trials in games like Virtua Fighter 4 Evo as it helped me learn and put what I learn into practice. Drills in Mordhau would be a great way to raise that skill floor, at least for players who actually use tutorials and training modes.

It would also help to have a glossary of all these terms and acronyms explained. I can guess that flinching means the hit stun you suffer which makes everything you try to do after slower so if you both throw the same attack the one who was in flinch will just get hit again. However, I have no idea what people mean when they talk about waterfalls or ftp, cftp, etc.

Knight 936 952
  • 26 Sep '17
 afiNity

@Frise said:
Well CS has a lot of hidden mechanics that you need to learn to get good, recoil control, sidestepping, jumpshots, momentum, strafing, scope accuracy, timings... To be fair it's quite a mess.

In Mordhau you have 2 types of attacks, parries, kicks, chambers and feints. Compared to fighting games like For Honor, that's nothing, really (and For Honor was very casual friendly)

The high level meta of Mordhau consists of combining and utilising these basic things properly. Hell, the most difficult things to do are sidedrags like waterfalls, wessex and the frisedrag(tm), and those are done just by moving your mouse and some footwork.

Sure, the inner workings of things are quite complex, but those are the kind of things that you incorporate with time.

A competitive player's skill consists primarily of footwork, reading, dragging and mind games, which are things that you can develop pretty naturally.

An issue I see though, is that some high level moves are very hard to understand from a new player's point of view, and I think a kill cam would help newbies understand how they got killed.

Knowing that running with knife is faster than with guns doesn't require any kind of special skills, just knowledge that this exists. You just have to switch to knife once to see what it does. So it's not really comparable to a mechanic like chambering which requires knowledge, but also mechanical skills like aiming and the right timing (which is hard even for people who are not new to the genre). And this very hard to do mechanic is the one that counters feints, a mechanic that is very easy to do. I think this bugs me most right now.
The point is that some mechanics in Mordhau are not very intuitive right now, I don't think that anyone can deny that. Mordhau is no game where people just start and learn everything from doing.
Maybe this will change with better animations, better sounds etc etc, I know that a lot of things will change but this is what I think about the status quo.

67 158
  • 26 Sep '17
 Flippy

@afiNity

And this very hard to do mechanic is the one that counters feints, a mechanic that is very easy to do. I think this bugs me most right now

Well, ya gotta remember you don't have to successfully chamber an attack to counter feints, you just need to try to chamber.