Mordhau

Skill floor is too LOW

Knight 289 201
  • 2
  • 21 Sep '17
 TheUprising

Though this is a bit early on to say this, this game's skill CAP is amazing, but this is worlds away from what most players who play the game will feel. The game is not easy to pick up and hard to master, its hard to pickup and hard to master.

Until you learn how to chamber proficiently, which I'm safely assuming most of the population won't do, they must rely on feints, which in their current iteration are much stronger than Chiv feints are assuming you can't chamber. Feints actually have a much more limited use for higher level players, but they are incredibly strong in newbie fights, making the game less fun than Chiv for most players.

Atm you don't see this problem since most everyone in Alpha knew what they were getting into, but when you guys open to the masses, the game needs to be fun for everyone, not only those who have mastered the art of the sword. Unless you think you have the next DotA on your hands and expect everyone to have a certain level of competency just to enjoy the game, a simple reworking in feints/free feints(morphs) is in order, so newbie fights don't just play out like Chiv 1.0.

Duke 5545 13265
  • 1
  • 21 Sep '17
 Jax — Community Manager

You uh... play the new build? They messed with feints and morphs.

Also, skill-based matchmaking and proper in-game tutorials will help immensely.

Knight 289 201
  • 21 Sep '17
 TheUprising

@Jax said:
You uh... play the new build? They messed with feints and morphs.

Also, skill-based matchmaking and proper in-game tutorials will help immensely.

The only thing I can think of to make the game workable to a wider audience is having a tutorial that you MUST complete and chamber in slow motion from different angles, slowly increasing game speed, to allow everyone to enjoy the game.

Conscript 153 283
  • 1
  • 21 Sep '17
 Kaiowa

As a not-so-experienced Chivalry player I find this game really hard to pick up , and I can only imagine how frustrating people who are really new to the genre will feel. Chambers are VERY hard to do since the correct angle is not only hard to find but also pretty narrow, drags are still there and are very efficient, feinting is also very effective. It's good to have a high skill curve but unless you make the game more approachable to new players I don't see the playerbase growing that much, certainly not to Chivalry's levels. And I don't think just having a good matchmaking is enough.

A simple solution would be to forget Chivalry's parry system and just adopt something similar to what Mount & Blade did. That would solve the issues new players have when facing drags and feints without affecting the skill ceiling (since skilled players would prefer chambering over parrying because stamina wars). Maybe also "lock" the player's camera position a little more when performing an attack in order to limit drag, because you can still turn a bit too much when attacking. But we're probably beyond that now.

Conscript 4564 6302
  • 1
  • 21 Sep '17
 vanguard

I think this is sort of solved by nooby game modes like horde, or 64 player servers etc. ATM it's pretty fucking hardcore.

Bots, coop and clusterfucks might be the answer.

Let's not forget horses and siege weapons as well. Oh, unlockable customization too.

There is a casual role play side imho no need to change mechanics.

Knight 106 188
  • 2
  • 21 Sep '17
 Crim

@Kaiowa said:
As a not-so-experienced Chivalry player I find this game really hard to pick up , and I can only imagine how frustrating people who are really new to the genre will feel.

Here is your first mistake, you think this early alpha build is 'the game', it's not even close to the final product yet. People will not be going through the same difficulties as you on release as by then there will be tutorials, objective game modes, seige weapons, horses, ranged weapons, just basically a lot more to the game than duels and skirmish with overly experienced opponents. You will be able to enjoy the game without ever having a 1v1 duel if you choose to.

Chambers are VERY hard to do since the correct angle is not only hard to find but also pretty narrow, drags are still there and are very efficient, feinting is also very effective. It's good to have a high skill curve but unless you make the game more approachable to new players I don't see the playerbase growing that much, certainly not to Chivalry's levels.
And I don't think just having a good matchmaking is enough.

I do agree chambers are hard, but that is intentional, it might change in the future. It's essential to have a high skill ceiling, as mentioned above, you are in an alpha jumping in at the deep end with a very high percentage of experienced chivalry players, many of them are even trying to seek out OP mechanics/tactics so they can report back and it gets balanced. The limited game mode and player base means you are going to feel this is far harder than someone new to the game at release as a lot of the best players will move to ranked/competitive once the game is released.

A simple solution would be to forget Chivalry's parry system and just adopt something similar to what Mount & Blade did. That would solve the issues new players have when facing drags and feints without affecting the skill ceiling (since skilled players would prefer chambering over parrying because stamina wars). Maybe also "lock" the player's camera position a little more when performing an attack in order to limit drag, because you can still turn a bit too much when attacking. But we're probably beyond that now.

This is the biggest mistake, anything that reduces the skill ceiling would mean there is less life to the game, less variation, less desire to improve. Drags need fine tuning but are an important part of the game, any 'lock' would completely nerf freedom and weapon movement, something that no one wants (you would get annihilated by people with better footwork and timing than you if you can't adjust after winding your attack).

The balance is getting tuned every patch and nothing at all is considered final yet (other than, hopefully, the intension to have a high skill ceiling and freedom to play how you want).

Anyone that drags too much are in fact probably the easiest opponent for me (due to flinch), you have loads of time to get in a quick hit or kick.

Knight 289 201
  • 1
  • 21 Sep '17
 TheUprising

I don't know, I find the drags pretty cool in this game especially when you can (my secret sauce) turn on the tracers and make all weird sort of redirection and twirly patterns.

Anyway what I'm trying to say is that many of the mechanics such as feinting seem to have been balanced with top level play in mind, and top level play only, which is incredibly short sighted. You don't BALANCE solely for lower level play, but you need to make sure its fun even though there's a lot more to learn.

Conscript 153 283
  • 21 Sep '17
 Kaiowa

I spent most of my Chivalry time shooting people and handling the meele part with OP daggers instead of actually using swords and now I'm either facing the top of the most experienced Chivalry players in South America or joining US servers with 140ms, so maybe my opinion is a little biased indeed. We'll have to wait for the actual release and see how it goes, I just hope they have a pretty damn good tutorial to cover all the mechanics in great details, specially chambers.

@Crim said:

@Kaiowa said:
A simple solution would be to forget Chivalry's parry system and just adopt something similar to what Mount & Blade did. That would solve the issues new players have when facing drags and feints without affecting the skill ceiling (since skilled players would prefer chambering over parrying because stamina wars). Maybe also "lock" the player's camera position a little more when performing an attack in order to limit drag, because you can still turn a bit too much when attacking. But we're probably beyond that now.

This is the biggest mistake, anything that reduces the skill ceiling would mean there is less life to the game, less variation, less desire to improve. Drags need fine tuning but are an important part of the game, any 'lock' would completely nerf freedom and weapon movement, something that no one wants (you would get annihilated by people with better footwork and timing than you if you can't adjust after winding your attack).

I honestly think that a directional based parry system would do wonders, it not only rasies the skill floor WITHOUT affecting the ceiling but also makes the meeles feel more realistic, but that's just my opinion. M&B is highly skill based and it does use directional blocking. Drags shouldn't be there in the first place - players should still have control of the force they're using on a slash, but to manipulate it's speed like that and slow it down in order to hit your opponent, you don't see that in an actual swordfight -, but the only reason it's a problem is because of the way parrying works.

I was hoping they would fix everything that was wrong with Chivalry, that's probably the expectation most people had when backing this, but you can still basically face your opponent backwards and start an attack hiding your hands movements completely and still hit him. That's exactly what was wrong with Chivalry.

Duke 162 274
  • 21 Sep '17
 BEACHES

If all I have to do is hold RMB and move my mouse to parry every fight would become a 2 min stamina war affair on who can chamber more to preserve their stamina.

No. Please no.

48 75
  • 1
  • 21 Sep '17
 cheesehead

@TheUprising said:

@Jax said:
You uh... play the new build? They messed with feints and morphs.

Also, skill-based matchmaking and proper in-game tutorials will help immensely.

The only thing I can think of to make the game workable to a wider audience is having a tutorial that you MUST complete and chamber in slow motion from different angles, slowly increasing game speed, to allow everyone to enjoy the game.

forcing tutorials on people is lame as fuck. it should be offered but not wholly necessary, I like to learn the controls of a game based on playing and listening to what people tell me.

1084 6148
  • 1
  • 21 Sep '17
 crushed — Art

@Kaiowa said:
I was hoping they would fix everything that was wrong with Chivalry, that's probably the expectation most people had when backing this, but you can still basically face your opponent backwards and start an attack hiding your hands movements completely and still hit him. That's exactly what was wrong with Chivalry.

Reverse hits (someone hitting you while he's facing you backwards) aren't possible in Mordhau, unless there is a new bug we are not aware of in which case footage would be greatly appreciated. They do no damage and you can parry them. There was a bug which let you still do them in some cases which was fixed in Build 2.

I guess what you probably mean is the edge cases where people can still spin, do a full turnaround and hit with the end of the swing. They are not anywhere near as bad as actual reverse hits, but still bad, as they are annoying/unfun to fight against and look dumb. Currently thinking of a solution to get rid of them without destroying some other aspects of the game, but we will sort them out.

As for noobs, you have to keep in mind that this alpha is the worst possible entry point for them, as there is no matchmaking, and no rating system, no ingame tutorial and things are currently unbalanced/with some possible cheese existing. On top of this the vast majority of players ingame are melee veterans. Mordhau is most fun when played against equally skilled opponents, like any other skill based game that uses matchmaking.

As for feints, the game is definitely not balanced yet and in the future it will be a bit easier to defend against feints (currently thinking about possible backpedal changes and chambers being more consistent). As for feints being OP in lower skill levels, keep in mind the noob fights youre describing arent actual noob fights, in actual noob fights, there are no feints. And if there are, they are usually very badly executed.

What you are describing is someone figuring out how to do good feints against people who have no idea how to defend against them or even do them themselves. This is a common thing in skill based games, someone figures out a strategy which works against players of a certain skill level, and they use it to win games, climbing up the rating. But eventually they will hit a cap with this strategy where they are fighting people who can deal with it or do it themselves, where it balances out again.

Except that currently there is no "climbing up" and and its very rough, you have to fight the same people over and over and its an uphill battle right from the start, instead of a natural skill progression as it should be

Knight 399 871
  • 21 Sep '17
 Alphonse

(people can still spin, do a full turnaround and hit with the end of the swing) are not anywhere near as bad as actual reverse hits, but still bad, as they are annoying/unfun to fight against and look dumb. Currently thinking of a solution to get rid of them without destroying some other aspects of the game, but we will sort them out.

it will be a bit easier to defend against feints (currently thinking about possible backpedal changes and chambers being more consistent)

I'm really glad the dev team is aware of these issues and are trying to figure out how to balance things.

Conscript 153 283
  • 22 Sep '17
 Kaiowa

@crushed said:

@Kaiowa said:
I was hoping they would fix everything that was wrong with Chivalry, that's probably the expectation most people had when backing this, but you can still basically face your opponent backwards and start an attack hiding your hands movements completely and still hit him. That's exactly what was wrong with Chivalry.

I guess what you probably mean is the edge cases where people can still spin, do a full turnaround and hit with the end of the swing. They are not anywhere near as bad as actual reverse hits, but still bad, as they are annoying/unfun to fight against and look dumb. Currently thinking of a solution to get rid of them without destroying some other aspects of the game, but we will sort them out.

This. You can work around it with a bit experience but it's still annoying, players shouldn't be able to hide their hand movement like that imo.

Glad to know you guys are active in the forums and considering all feedback, thanks for the response.

Knight 105 274
  • 22 Sep '17
 Ser Arthur Dayne

I dont comment very often but for this I got to. I have played chiv for years and can tell you even I had trouble at the start of mordhau. Took me time to find my weapon, armor style, and stance but Iearned just like in chiv. You got to push past the bullshit to get good, time is what it takes. All the peeps on release are going to die like chumps at first, some will ragequit, but the ones who persevere will get better. There is no skill cap for this game, "you" are the skill cap.

67 158
  • 22 Sep '17
 Flippy

@crushed said:

@Kaiowa said:
I was hoping they would fix everything that was wrong with Chivalry, that's probably the expectation most people had when backing this, but you can still basically face your opponent backwards and start an attack hiding your hands movements completely and still hit him. That's exactly what was wrong with Chivalry.

Reverse hits (someone hitting you while he's facing you backwards) aren't possible in Mordhau, unless there is a new bug we are not aware of in which case footage would be greatly appreciated. They do no damage and you can parry them. There was a bug which let you still do them in some cases which was fixed in Build 2.

I guess what you probably mean is the edge cases where people can still spin, do a full turnaround and hit with the end of the swing. They are not anywhere near as bad as actual reverse hits, but still bad, as they are annoying/unfun to fight against and look dumb. Currently thinking of a solution to get rid of them without destroying some other aspects of the game, but we will sort them out.

As for noobs, you have to keep in mind that this alpha is the worst possible entry point for them, as there is no matchmaking, and no rating system, no ingame tutorial and things are currently unbalanced/with some possible cheese existing. On top of this the vast majority of players ingame are melee veterans. Mordhau is most fun when played against equally skilled opponents, like any other skill based game that uses matchmaking.

As for feints, the game is definitely not balanced yet and in the future it will be a bit easier to defend against feints (currently thinking about possible backpedal changes and chambers being more consistent). As for feints being OP in lower skill levels, keep in mind the noob fights youre describing arent actual noob fights, in actual noob fights, there are no feints. And if there are, they are usually very badly executed.

What you are describing is someone figuring out how to do good feints against people who have no idea how to defend against them or even do them themselves. This is a common thing in skill based games, someone figures out a strategy which works against players of a certain skill level, and they use it to win games, climbing up the rating. But eventually they will hit a cap with this strategy where they are fighting people who can deal with it or do it themselves, where it balances out again.

Except that currently there is no "climbing up" and and its very rough, you have to fight the same people over and over and its an uphill battle right from the start, instead of a natural skill progression as it should be

I was gonna reply but Crushed pretty much summed up everything I had on my mind. GG

Mercenary 83 73

@crushed said:

@Kaiowa said:
I was hoping they would fix everything that was wrong with Chivalry, that's probably the expectation most people had when backing this, but you can still basically face your opponent backwards and start an attack hiding your hands movements completely and still hit him. That's exactly what was wrong with Chivalry.

Reverse hits (someone hitting you while he's facing you backwards) aren't possible in Mordhau, unless there is a new bug we are not aware of in which case footage would be greatly appreciated. They do no damage and you can parry them. There was a bug which let you still do them in some cases which was fixed in Build 2.

I guess what you probably mean is the edge cases where people can still spin, do a full turnaround and hit with the end of the swing. They are not anywhere near as bad as actual reverse hits, but still bad, as they are annoying/unfun to fight against and look dumb. Currently thinking of a solution to get rid of them without destroying some other aspects of the game, but we will sort them out.

As for noobs, you have to keep in mind that this alpha is the worst possible entry point for them, as there is no matchmaking, and no rating system, no ingame tutorial and things are currently unbalanced/with some possible cheese existing. On top of this the vast majority of players ingame are melee veterans. Mordhau is most fun when played against equally skilled opponents, like any other skill based game that uses matchmaking.

As for feints, the game is definitely not balanced yet and in the future it will be a bit easier to defend against feints (currently thinking about possible backpedal changes and chambers being more consistent). As for feints being OP in lower skill levels, keep in mind the noob fights youre describing arent actual noob fights, in actual noob fights, there are no feints. And if there are, they are usually very badly executed.

What you are describing is someone figuring out how to do good feints against people who have no idea how to defend against them or even do them themselves. This is a common thing in skill based games, someone figures out a strategy which works against players of a certain skill level, and they use it to win games, climbing up the rating. But eventually they will hit a cap with this strategy where they are fighting people who can deal with it or do it themselves, where it balances out again.

Except that currently there is no "climbing up" and and its very rough, you have to fight the same people over and over and its an uphill battle right from the start, instead of a natural skill progression as it should be

Guess the current problem about feints isn't that they're existing. Well personally i don't like feints too even if i can read them sometimes. but that's not the point. The point is that feints just cost 10 stamina. That means ur opponent can feint u a couple of times and lands the first hit. after he just need to step back a bit to regen some stamina as it regens very fast. Guess the problem abour feints could be solved by punishing it with more stamina consumption. Feints would be less used but things like chambers and morphs or chambers to morph would be more used also by high skilled players. actually the issue is, that if u fight a heafy armored knight as an medium armored player u'll get feinted with the zwei and killed in 2 hits. OFC skilled players will deal with it...maybe...but just "good" players will have their problems. Just punish it with more stamina consumption and feints will be more seldom and better used like in combos for example. But now, they are meta and there's not really a focus on chambering on duel maps unfortunately. But well. As i said, it's just my opinion. And if it won't be changed i need to deal with it.

Baron 291 224
  • 4
  • 25 Sep '17
 Esa1996

@crushed said:
I guess what you probably mean is the edge cases where people can still spin, do a full turnaround and hit with the end of the swing. They are not anywhere near as bad as actual reverse hits, but still bad, as they are annoying/unfun to fight against and look dumb. Currently thinking of a solution to get rid of them without destroying some other aspects of the game, but we will sort them out.

Lower the turncap? I don't see it breaking any other aspects of playing the game. Lowering it too low would of course limit dragging but a small reduction in dragging ability wouldn't be bad IMO. Also, perhaps include a turncap for both release and windup as I've seen people who do a 180 during the windup and then turn back during the release.

As for feints, the game is definitely not balanced yet and in the future it will be a bit easier to defend against feints (currently thinking about possible backpedal changes and chambers being more consistent). As for feints being OP in lower skill levels, keep in mind the noob fights youre describing arent actual noob fights, in actual noob fights, there are no feints. And if there are, they are usually very badly executed.

Some improvement ideas on the dynamic feinting mechanic (Which is great. I was actually going to post it as an idea before the release of Alpha Patch #5):

If person A (Attacker) feints with their windup at, say, 50%, the feint recovery time should be such that Person B (Defender) can parry at the same exact moment that Person A's weapon hits them. This would turn all late stage feints from near certain free hits into speed races of weapon acceleration vs footwork as the defender tries to back away from the incoming weapon to get themselves time to parry and the attacker tries to pull their weapon into the defender before they can parry. This would also make feinting include tactics: do you want a near certain chance at an improbable free hit (Late feint) or an improbable chance of a near certain free hit (Early feint)?

Knight 936 952
  • 1
  • 25 Sep '17
 afiNity

As much as I like the complexity of the mechanics in this game, I think they might become a problem in the long run.
Chiv only worked for noobs/casual players because they ignored many of the mechanics, which led to very different metas between competitive and casual play and this might become true for Mordhau as well.
Ideally a game should be easy to learn (or at least easy to get into) but hard to master, while Mordhau is really hard to get into. 99% of the people in the alpha are ex-chiv-players, so for us it isn't that much of a deal due to our previous experience.
But Mordhau is actually much more complex and harder to learn than Chiv so I'm a bit worried how completely new players to the genre will perform and how many of them will rq cause of frustration.
There are games from the melee genre that are much easier to learn but still have an extremely high skill ceiling. I wish Mordhau was a bit more like that.
I'm not saying that the mechanics should be changed but... what's the point of a super good game if only a couple chiv nerds are going to play it. A high skill ceiliing doesn't necessarily have to come from super many different mechanics. Just some thoughts.

Duke 162 274
  • 25 Sep '17
 BEACHES

Yes this game is way harder and more complex than Chiv and that already had a huge skill cap. Makes me think all of these different mechanics might just be TOO much. Makes teamplay really chaotic and unpredictable.

1084 6148
  • 1
  • 25 Sep '17
 crushed — Art

@afiNity said:
As much as I like the complexity of the mechanics in this game, I think they might become a problem in the long run.
Chiv only worked for noobs/casual players because they ignored many of the mechanics, which led to very different metas between competitive and casual play and this might become true for Mordhau as well.
Ideally a game should be easy to learn (or at least easy to get into) but hard to master, while Mordhau is really hard to get into. 99% of the people in the alpha are ex-chiv-players, so for us it isn't that much of a deal due to our previous experience.
But Mordhau is actually much more complex and harder to learn than Chiv so I'm a bit worried how completely new players to the genre will perform and how many of them will rq cause of frustration.
There are games from the melee genre that are much easier to learn but still have an extremely high skill ceiling. I wish Mordhau was a bit more like that.
I'm not saying that the mechanics should be changed but... what's the point of a super good game if only a couple chiv nerds are going to play it. A high skill ceiliing doesn't necessarily have to come from super many different mechanics. Just some thoughts.

I have to disagree, have you actually seen any new players play the game? For example some of the content creators/streamers, from what i've seen, the basics of attacking, defense (parrying) and flinching is easily learned and understood quickly. It was actually satisfying to watch how quickly they improved within an hour of playing compared to when they started, despite no actual tutorials and such.

There is no doubt that the meta will be different between good players and between noobs. In my experience, a lot of noobs didn't even know you could overhead in Chiv. A tutorial and matchmaking will be needed for Mordhau, regardless, something like chambering is far from the basics. You don't learn about all the advanced stuff in most games with high skill ceilings until you've atleast played for a while.

IMO unless im missing something here, I think youre confusing with easy to get into with whole game being easy to learn