Mordhau

Feints aren't the problem. Parrying is.

Knight 23 48
  • 3 Oct '17
 kattalainen

You are correct I didn't play much chivalry, because I thought it was a mess, partly because of the timed parry but mostly because of the crazy reverse rainbows and whatever else they are called.
But I knew very well that mordhau would still have the same parry system and even though I'm not fond of it I've played it for 80 hours now and I can tolerate it in this game.
I just saw this thread and thought I'd say something to balance out the (most likely chivalry players) strong opposition to change.

Knight 1269 3804
  • 3 Oct '17
 Frise

I wouldn't mind a way to hold parry as long as it was somehow discouraged from being used in high-level play.

Certainly would help the game retain newer players.

But I sure as hell don't want to see it in competitive environments.

Then again, noobs can just equip a shield.

Knight 27 28
  • 3 Oct '17
 D.Sofren

@Frise said:
I wouldn't mind a way to hold parry as long as it was somehow discouraged from being used in high-level play.

Certainly would help the game retain newer players.

But I sure as hell don't want to see it in competitive environments.

Then again, noobs can just equip a shield.

It's likely the best course of action would be that more stamina is lost when blocking with a weapon as opposed to a shield, as is the case in virtually any other melee game (i.e. Dark Souls, Skyrim, etc. But not M&B or Soul Calibur). In competitive play, any stamina lost is a big deal, so losing more from a sword block is a bigger deal. Though to counter that, competitive play would most likely parry or chamber anyway (chambering stabs and parrying swings more likely, as the swing chambering still needs work) to conserve stamina.

Noobs, as you said, would use a shield (or ranged weaponry and horseback in the final game. We'll see.)

TL;DR In high level play, blocks with a sword may not be used due to it giving a greater stamina loss, but it should be implemented to help ease the learning curve and make the game more enjoyable for everyone.

Not everyone is "comp," and there should be no reason why something isn't implemented simply because it's not the tournament meta. If we all just stuck with the meta, we'd have maybe three weapons, horseback and ranged fighting would not be implemented, and everything would be either FFA or duels. That'd be one hell of a boring game.

396 453
  • 4 Oct '17
 JasonBourne

How does one block irl with a sword ? Holding it like suggested here or parry at the right moment or get killed ? :D

Knight 27 28
  • 4 Oct '17
 D.Sofren

@JasonBourne said:
How does one block irl with a sword ? Holding it like suggested here or parry at the right moment or get killed ? :D

irl the option to block would be available.

Knight 3299 6742
  • 1
  • 4 Oct '17
 Bodkin

You don't block with a sword in reality unless you want strikes breaking through your guard and hitting you in the face.

You always perform an active parry of striking against an incoming blow or knocking it to the side. I've always justified the timed parry to myself in this way, that its not a guard but an active parry (hence the name of the mechanic).

Guards work in fencing because the weapons have the same leverage (normally being copies of each other), along with the fact that the opponents are not attempting to harm one another. In real fighting, its quite a bit different.

Knight 23 48
  • 1
  • 4 Oct '17
 kattalainen

@Bodkin said:
You don't block with a sword in reality unless you want strikes breaking through your guard and hitting you in the face.

In reality you also don't turn over 90 degrees away from your opponent and aim at the sun to strike his foot on the end of your overhead strike, for full damage.
The realism argument has already been discussed, even in this thread I think. This is a game.

Knight 1269 3804
  • 4 Oct '17
 Frise

You can't redirect your attacks in real life?
TIL hema fighters are magicians.

Knight 23 48
  • 4 Oct '17
 kattalainen

Yes, perfect conclusion from what I said.
10/10 reading comprehension.

Duke 162 274
  • 4 Oct '17
 BEACHES

@kattalainen said:

@BEACHES said:
Thats fine, it's clear we like different aspects of the game and our opinions are just different. Agree to disagree.

But you are basing your opinion on your own version of a seemingly op blocking mechanic that would indeed make the game more "easy". Believe me I sure as hell don't want the game to turn into easy-mode either.

The timed parry just feels so awkward to me. That said, I don't really have any solutions. Parrying as it is now is part of a working system and any changes to it are kinda hard to tell the outcome without a live testing environment. It may very well be that any other form of parrying in this system would make the game bad, but we wouldn't know this if every suggestion to changes of chivalry mechanics gets shit on by all chivalry players on here, only because you want to keep it the way you are used to or make up straw man arguments like "op blocking will be op".

Yes, I do want want to keep it somewhat similar to Chiv. I really liked Chiv, so I want this game to be an improved version of it without the hurricane reverses and spins (although those were goofy fun). I don't really hide my bias there.

The noob friendly fix is to lower the parry recovery window, and make panic parrying drain stam.

Knight 3299 6742
  • 1
  • 4 Oct '17
 Bodkin

The only way I see this idea being balanced is to make it a passive defense, only used to save your skin. You'd have to make it take a good bit of stamina but allow no riposte or counterattack, allowing the aggressor to continue the tempo.

This would keep shields viable and make the held block mechanic not very advantageous whatsoever, but its there to help learn the game or to be used when you need it

Knight 3299 6742
  • 1
  • 4 Oct '17
 Bodkin

@kattalainen said:

@Bodkin said:
You don't block with a sword in reality unless you want strikes breaking through your guard and hitting you in the face.

In reality you also don't turn over 90 degrees away from your opponent and aim at the sun to strike his foot on the end of your overhead strike, for full damage.
The realism argument has already been discussed, even in this thread I think. This is a game.

If you were to excercise your "10/10" reading comprehension you would notice I was going off the 2 previous comments

Instead of shilling, look for the targets of the comment

Knight 445 1073
  • 4 Oct '17
 Knight Nicholas

@Bodkin said:
look for the targets of the comment

That's what quotes are for, silly

Knight 23 48
  • 4 Oct '17
 kattalainen

@Bodkin said:
If you were to excercise your "10/10" reading comprehension you would notice I was going off the 2 previous comments

Instead of shilling, look for the targets of the comment

Well shit. New comments come up on top and I missed that you weren't the one bringing realism up again.
I Will now commit sudoku.

Knight 23 48
  • 4 Oct '17
 kattalainen

@BEACHES said:
The noob friendly fix is to lower the parry recovery window, and make panic parrying drain stam.

That's basicly what I'm thinking too.

Another thing I'm thinking is that the timed parry is what actually enables and encourages the players to come up with those drag-shows. And people will probably find ways to work around drag-restrictions to trick you into parrying, which in itself I would call "skillful", but gameplay might end up looking just as ridiculous as chivalry because of the timed parry.
So how do you change parrying into something that would lower incentives to come up with ridiculous drags, without breaking the rest of the game? I have no idea. Might not even be needed when devs are done working on the mechanics their way.

Mercenary 51 50
  • 4 Oct '17
 Uktuli

Timed parries and the various ways to get around them are what make Chivalry and Mordhau interesting. Chivalry would have died a long time ago if it wasn't for the ability to manipulate real time strikes (dragging). Feints are a cheap way to get around a mediocre player's parry; drags require far more skill to effectively pull off vs anyone with much experience. Just leave it alone and learn to parry late.

Do you really think "noobs" will be happier when they drop their weapon and die after they run out of stamina from panic parries or held parries? It's not going to save them. It's going to kill the fucking game.

Knight 27 28
  • 5 Oct '17
 D.Sofren

I like the idea of parries costing stamina on launch as opposed to on block.

...and whoever thinks blocking isn't a thing with swords, I recommend taking a closer look is all. I'm not saying that some of you don't practice real arts, but I also know that I've often held up my sword longer than 0.5 seconds in a real fight.

Not for like 3 seconds or more. That's predictable. But real life sword-fighting isn't about exploiting timed mechanics. As it turns out, both fighters are often free thinkers and have their own ways of fighting. Adding sword blocks into Mordhau, or at least the ability to hold a parry longer, would reflect this.