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Balancing Feints & Morphing (Stamina)

Count 449 1186
  • 9
  • 16 Sep '17
 Hadeus

I know that balance isn't the focus in alpha, but I can't help but notice people complaining about 'Spam2win'.

I know some people, including myself, enjoy playing a defensive playstyle by letting reckless/overly aggressive opponents stam themselves out to punish them. Currently, that is not a viable playstyle against morph feinting.

I don't mind feinting/morphing (I love it), but the lack of stamina penalty on both is a bit lopsided.

In Mordhau Alpha, it costs 10 stamina to feint people at the moment, which allows you to feint 10 times.
In Chivalry, it costs 25 stamina to feint, which only allows you to feint 4 times.

I would argue that the feint stamina penalty should be adjusted to 25, to penalize the 'offensive meta', and make a defensive play style more viable.

Implementing severer stamina penalties will punish 'spamming' and reward tactical gameplay.


On another note, perhaps morphing should have a small stamina penalty such as 5 stamina?
Morphing is currently a free feint.

Thoughts?

5 3

I think this is a good idea, I really dont have as much of an issue with feints as some other people but the idea of penalizing it a bit more is definitely something Id like to see. It should be something you use at an opportune moment, not something you spam between every single attack.

Knight 3194 4397
  • 1
  • 16 Sep '17
 MONKEYTOES

feints should take 12-15 stamina

morphs should take 1-2 stamina

attacking objects or parries should take 1-2 stamina

attacking after chambering should take 1 stamina

Knight 83 115
  • 16 Sep '17
 Mufflin

I'm fighting against people and chambering all their hits and then they can just feintfag and win. So low skill of them but it's just not possible to beat feintfags reliably when it's possible to feint almost at the end of the animation at no cost and it happens instantly but takes 0.2 seconds to reach you because of latency by which point it's too late you're locked in to your own animation.

Basically they just need to be less annoying and casual because at the moment any idiot can just spam feint and win even if they are completely retarded and don't know how to chamber or anything.

Perhaps it could be like chambering, you have to press the feint button within a tiny window for it to feint otherwise it just fucks up your attack. That would make it something you have to meticulously practise keeping away the standard feintfag and making it so when someone feints you that's actually a really well played move that you can respect instead of just being some guy pressing Q to win.

Knight 3194 4397
  • 16 Sep '17
 MONKEYTOES

Muffin, learn how to read feints. Mordhau is a mindgame. Also, parry when you hear your opponent's grunt. It's an indication that the attack has entered the release phase.

git gud

Knight 697 1611
  • 16 Sep '17
 das

2h feints are actually quite readable. Chambers are something you must get good at regardless. You have to be calm and collectes enough to watch for morphs, or FTP them if you got chamber baited.

Quarterstaff and fast 1h kinda aren't but you can play a lot riskier and gambly and come out on top, you don't have to play as technically
/mechanically perfect but rather smarter on spacing and trickery.

Think long term. Think of Mordhau as a game where you can constantly improve on these combat mechanics even 5 years down the line.

Morphs get flinched by overly aggressive styles, especially against faster weapons. Guys who seemingly attack out of turn to prod for timings where he'll flinch first. There was this one guy in US East (or EU? I had 100 ping) named SER | who knew how to truly pressure someone. I haven't faced Gauntlet or Tolazy4name yet, but I imagine they've been adjusting well to how aggressive and playstyle-prodding you can get.

Feints get beat by chambers, the feinter is forced to parry or gets stabbed because he can't queue an attack fast enough in most weapon matchups.

If you want a defensive playstyle in such an aggressive game, there's literally a tool designed for that: the shield. Even if they might be overpowered right now (I'm going to withhold judgment, I haven't played with or against shields too much), they certainly add flavor because they are a very unique matchup, much like how facing an Eveningstar or Quarterstaff requires you to completely change how you play.

When the entire game makes defense equal in difficulty as offense, that game kind of becomes boring because no one is incentivized to make the first move anymore then. Defensive metas are a no-no for spectatorship and for fun. Slow and boring fighting games showcase this. Everyone loves Fox vs Falco, everyone loathes Puff vs Puff.

CFTP would cost an exorbitant amount of stamina if feint costs were raised. I personally wouldn't care either way though. But a missed kick -> CFTP would cost 50 stam + weapon parry stam, a missed Zwei swing would cost like 37 stam + weapon drain stam.

Mercenary 1897 7067
  • 16 Sep '17
 ThunderDuck

I agree that morphs should definitely cost some more stamina. Right now there isn't really a reason not to always morph as an opener. I feel like chamber attempt into parry is the best way to counter a morph, the thing is then I lose a bunch of stamina while my opponent who morphed does not lose any.

Knight 697 1611
  • 16 Sep '17
 das

I'm trying to get to the point where I chamber the morphed attack. I can often see the morph coming, just have to be ready to match the angle + timing + aim.

Knight 53 60
  • 16 Sep '17
 Ziggylata

Das if you think 2h feints are readable you should go into a game with zedhead and see what he discovered.

Knight 697 1611
  • 16 Sep '17
 das

Sure thing. Is he US West?

Baron 1226 1617
  • 1
  • 16 Sep '17
 Carlo_Mano

@Hadeus said:
I don't mind feinting/morphing (I love it), but the lack of stamina penalty on both is a bit lopsided.

This.

The slow, useless, rangeless, turn capped kick costs 1/4 of stamina. Feint not even half of that.

It's ok to use feints, it's a core mechanic of the game, I understand that. But when spamming it is the way to win, there's a problem.

And don't give my that "git gud" bullshit. If it was only about that, you would be spamming chambers as much as you spam feints by now.

Knight 123 262
  • 2
  • 17 Sep '17
 Vin¢

Chiv feints aren't 25 stamina, IIRC they're about half that.

As for morphs: It's a little hard to tell whether they're balanced ATM. I think we'll have to wait and see if chamber gets changed, because the interplay between chambers and morphs is quite important. Buffing chambers would also nerf feinting, which seems to be what you want.

414 418
  • 17 Sep '17
 nohbdy

Chiv feints are 15 stamina iirc, and no we're not trying to recreate Stamina Warfare. I definitely agree that attack morphs are a problem in the sense that they can be used as a free feint. Maybe attack morphs should only be possible in very early windup?

Also, a defensive "fighting" style is already much more viable due to chambers, but it should really never be equally as viable as offense. You win fights by attacking, so using a style that sacrifices the initiative by default is objectively counterproductive.

Knight 174 263
  • 17 Sep '17
 Echonian

@SpreaderofCheeks said:
I agree that morphs should definitely cost some more stamina. Right now there isn't really a reason not to always morph as an opener. I feel like chamber attempt into parry is the best way to counter a morph, the thing is then I lose a bunch of stamina while my opponent who morphed does not lose any.

The reason to not morph on an opening is that if your opponent decides to immediately stab or attempt to chamber, you WILL probably get hit due to using a morph instead of just swinging. You should only have to switch into a parry from your chamber attempt rather than HITTING them first due to their morph if they are using a particularly fast weapon, or your timing was off.

It's the same thing that balances out feints, but the advantage with feints is that you can immediately do "anything" else, without being forced to just do a slightly delayed attack.

I don't really see the problem. A slight (maybe 10) stamina penalty on using a morph might be acceptable, and perhaps feints should take a bit more, but I don't want it to be like in Chivalry where you can barely use mindgames without instantly being exhausted.

Knight 174 263
  • 17 Sep '17
 Echonian

@Carlo_Mano said:

@Hadeus said:
I don't mind feinting/morphing (I love it), but the lack of stamina penalty on both is a bit lopsided.

This.

The slow, useless, rangeless, turn capped kick costs 1/4 of stamina. Feint not even half of that.

It's ok to use feints, it's a core mechanic of the game, I understand that. But when spamming it is the way to win, there's a problem.

And don't give my that "git gud" bullshit. If it was only about that, you would be spamming chambers as much as you spam feints by now.

"Git gud" still applies.

Spamming chambers isn't done because it's a technique that requires a high level of skill, and feints do not, so trying to equate them when it "is" definitely skill that allows a person to chamber more often is odd.

Just because one technique is easier to use and therefore is being used more often does not mean that said technique is actually overpowered among skilled players (the players who things need to actually be balanced around, by the way). I haven't had any real problem with feint spamming yet in this game, because you can counter it much more easily than in Chivalry. You can attempt to chamber and hit them during their feints, you get a first-hit stun making it viable to simply try to out-speed people in general, and often-times you can parry in time even IF they spam feints and confuse you, as long as you are paying attention.

It really only is a problem spamming feints when you panic, and that hasn't changed between this game and chivalry, but feints are far less powerful now than I remember them being in chiv. Simply because you can afford to attempt counters to them. Again, chambering or simply attempting to out-speed someone with usual trades is a valid course.

I mean, I still suck at chambering myself, but I've gotten better.

Although, kicks taking as much stamina as you're claiming is definitely a problem if true (I haven't noticed it myself).

Baron 1226 1617
  • 17 Sep '17
 Carlo_Mano

@Echonian said:
Although, kicks taking as much stamina as you're claiming is definitely a problem if true (I haven't noticed it myself).

They might take less when they are successful, I haven't checked that.

Knight 174 263
  • 17 Sep '17
 Echonian

@Carlo_Mano said:

@Echonian said:
Although, kicks taking as much stamina as you're claiming is definitely a problem if true (I haven't noticed it myself).

They might take less when they are successful, I haven't checked that.

I just finished playing for like 3 hours (sucking the whole time), and I don't recall the stamina from kicks being less if you hit or not. Though I don't recall ever worrying about my stamina running out after a successful kick, and do remember it being an issue when I kicked and missed, so maybe there is a connection? If somebody could confirm this, that would be nice.

Kicks are hard to use in this game, though. I've managed to make them a good part of my repertoire with my light armor quarterstaff build (which I struggle to get a 1.0 k/d with, but that's beside the point). If you keep an enemy on the defensive, it gives you a much better opportunity to kick them while they are focused on countering your attacks, and most people never seem to want to risk kicking you to get you off of them.

Baron 1226 1617
  • 17 Sep '17
 Carlo_Mano

I'm back testing slowmo with bots. kick doesn't drain stamina when successful, AND its speed is actually decent when used as a riposte after a successful parry.

I also noticed that while chambering thrusts is easy, chambering any slash angle that isn't horizontal is very, VERY difficult, especially with pole weapons.

Still feints should at least drain as much stamina as a missed hit, which really isn't the case ATM

Knight 697 1611
  • 17 Sep '17
 das

@Carlo_Mano said:
I'm back testing slowmo with bots. kick doesn't drain stamina when successful, AND its speed is actually decent when used as a riposte after a successful parry.

You're absolutely right. If you got a facehugger who actually techs kicks, then attack -> morph -> kick is good so they try to parry/chamber and get a boot instead (can't kick tech anymore once you've done a parry).

I also noticed that while chambering thrusts is easy, chambering any slash angle that isn't horizontal is very, VERY difficult, especially with pole weapons.

This is one of the few things that actually feels wrong rather than simply a case of the player being bad. At any rate, the devs are aware of most animation and consistency issues.

Still feints should at least drain as much stamina as a missed hit, which really isn't the case ATM

The thing is, missing a swipe with something like a dagger costs less than feinting itself.

Baron 1226 1617
  • 17 Sep '17
 Carlo_Mano

@das said:

@Carlo_Mano said:
Still feints should at least drain as much stamina as a missed hit, which really isn't the case ATM

The thing is, missing a swipe with something like a dagger costs less than feinting itself.

Oh, I had a longsword when I was testing ^^