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Mordhau is worse than slasher.

988 6974
  • 16 Sep '17
 marox — Project Lead

Please give more details, no need to pull any punches.

Mercenary 1897 7067
  • 16 Sep '17
 ThunderDuck

@AngelEyes said:

@SpreaderofCheeks said:

@AngelEyes said:
I don't think it's a bad thing. Also you'd think this would imply that I like it.

Yes I edited that part out because it didn't make sense corresponding to what you previously said, my bad. :). Also didn't want to sound like I was jumping down your throat as what I said was directed toward Havoc. I just got carried away over morning coffee. Forgive me.

No worries man

273 444
  • 16 Sep '17
 YOLANDIVISSER

@marox said:
Please give more details, no need to pull any punches.

Don't worry marox, Havoc has the most consistently bad opinions of anyone I've seen on these forums.

Knight 5 26
  • 16 Sep '17
 DonutMaster

I'd say my main gripes are:

  • Parries are too wide; it is way too hard to get around them with sidestabs and such which greatly limits your options.

  • Overhead swing angles: in Chivalry, your overheads would curve towards the centre as it swung, which felt intuitive and allowed for decent swing manipulation e.g. waterfalls, which could sometimes catch people (but usually didn't so they weren't broken or anything). In Mordhau it just goes straight diagonal. It allows for more dodging options for the defender, but it just feels so wrong and awkward as the attacker, and I don't think it's worth it just for extra dodging options. I guess a possible solution would be to make it so the higher the angle of swing = the more curvature.

  • Weapon tracers could maybe be fattened slightly, often my weapon looks like it should have hit from what I saw; though the swings may have actually indeed missed ever so slightly, it is frustrating as the attacker when it looked like it should have hit, which is something that is important to consider (for example, in Dark Souls 3 they made the weapon hit boxes quite a bit longer than the actual weapon model in order to make attacking feel better, though they overdid it quite a bit).
    Obviously you want to keep it tight in a game like this, but some very slight tweaking may be in order.

Baron 3 21
  • 16 Sep '17
 Enaver

@DonutMaster said:

  • Parries are too wide; it is way too hard to get around them with sidestabs and such which greatly limits your options.

As someone who is a casual player to this games, I massively agree with this.

214 412
  • 16 Sep '17
 Astonop

@Enaver said:

@DonutMaster said:

  • Parries are too wide; it is way too hard to get around them with sidestabs and such which greatly limits your options.

As someone who is a casual player to this games, I massively agree with this.

I too am a casual player, but I'm not sure of my stance on this entirely. While parries do feel a little all-encompassing at times when you pull off a massive swing and hear the depressing ding of a parry, I also believe it's my own fault that I cannot use the rest of the game's mechanics to get around parries. I'd say that my best skill in the game is defending - I can make a fight drag on and on but as soon as I throw a swing into my defense I ultimately have my guard broken and that is through not fault but my own.

Maybe alter the kick. I've only ever kicked somebody once in a fight and still lost, it feels extremely limited and slightly useless right now as something that should potentially change a fight.

Duke 986 1381
  • 16 Sep '17
 PadanFain

Lol Havoc git gud

Knight 2307 4188
  • 17 Sep '17
 Runagate

@Havoc Come on now, elaborate to Marox. It'd be rude to leave him hanging like that, especially considering he made this game and the allegedly better Slasher happen.

1920 968

@DonutMaster said:
I'd say my main gripes are:

  • Parries are too wide; it is way too hard to get around them with sidestabs and such which greatly limits your options.

  • Overhead swing angles: in Chivalry, your overheads would curve towards the centre as it swung, which felt intuitive and allowed for decent swing manipulation e.g. waterfalls, which could sometimes catch people (but usually didn't so they weren't broken or anything). In Mordhau it just goes straight diagonal. It allows for more dodging options for the defender, but it just feels so wrong and awkward as the attacker, and I don't think it's worth it just for extra dodging options. I guess a possible solution would be to make it so the higher the angle of swing = the more curvature.

  • Weapon tracers could maybe be fattened slightly, often my weapon looks like it should have hit from what I saw; though the swings may have actually indeed missed ever so slightly, it is frustrating as the attacker when it looked like it should have hit, which is something that is important to consider (for example, in Dark Souls 3 they made the weapon hit boxes quite a bit longer than the actual weapon model in order to make attacking feel better, though they overdid it quite a bit).
    Obviously you want to keep it tight in a game like this, but some very slight tweaking may be in order.

I have felt and mentioned the same problem with parries. The parries actually feel bigger in Mordhau than they do in Chivalry, i know that can't be the case as i can actually hit my opponents legs, but it still feels that way.

As i mentioned before.

"One thing i will say though, multiple times i have been right up on a person where my body literally can't move any closer, crouched, and stabbing directly at their feet, their toes even. And yet I've had people consistently block the attack whilst standing up, as if they aren't even really trying. That doesn't make any physical sense, nor does it seem balanced in the slightest. If i can position myself so well, that i can get right on them, crouched and looking all the way down, without being hurt myself. I should be rewarded for doing so. They shouldn't be able to negate all of that work, by simply looking down slightly. They should have to at least crouch to block that attack.

i honestly thought the block boxes would be much better than this. I notice this problem on my end too, many times i block attacks without even really trying. I definitely notice in chivalry, i have to strain harder to read where the attack is coming from, than i do in Mordhau."

1920 968

However i absolutely disagree that Mordhau is worse than slasher.

I think Mordhau has incredible potential, all it needs is a few tweaks, and it could very well be the best PvP game ever made.

Knight 697 1611
  • 1
  • 17 Sep '17
 das

@Stouty said:
I was somewhat in the same boat having went from super consistently chambering in slasher to hardly being able to chamber a thing in Mordhau but some practice has alleviated this. Making a passive aggressive post doesn't really help anyone though so it would have been more helpful to state something constructive like "the release animations could be made clearer in Mordhau". Also I'd be interested in knowing how far you took the skill ceiling in Slasher, Havoc. Kaway and I became pretty godlike at chambering and most hits were landed by cheesing how instant the combo overheads became if you accel'd them, using dodge and running in and out of facehug to land kicks/punish kick attempts which became a bit dull after a while. I also found plenty of times in Slasher where someone would go to punish my feint but I'd land my hit first anyway (as sometimes happens in Mordhau) so there may also be a case of nostalgia goggles kicking in

Seconded.

Slasher devolved into hippity hopping and chamber stalemates (lack of normal morphs, only chamber stab -> strike morphs existed). I don't understand how that's better than Mordhau. And, in the US West, the only people I've faced who took me to that level were Gauntlet and Tolazy4name, everyone else just tried to play like it was Chivalry so feinting them in Slasher (which were a lot weaker than in Mordhau) was still effective.

I'm curious who all these ex-Slasher and Mordhau testers are that are laughing at me and agreeing that Slasher was superior. Can you name three people?

Baron 664 1304
  • 1
  • 17 Sep '17
 PJ_Ammas

>taking Havoc's bait

3234 4264
  • 17 Sep '17
 Havoc

@Runagate said:
@Havoc Come on now, elaborate to Marox. It'd be rude to leave him hanging like that, especially considering he made this game and the allegedly better Slasher happen.

I'll give my reasons on saturday (wall of text), I've just been stupidly busy this week.

18 17
  • 17 Sep '17
 WXX

objectively, inherently worse. you did your bests, but it's time to pack it up. game cancelled. for real though you've got me curious-- you seriously going to leave us in suspense for a week?

1627 2898
  • 1
  • 17 Sep '17
 Ranten

I wholeheartedly agree with Vanguard on this. It's just that Mordhau is a really different game from Chiv, but we've all been programmed to expect the games to be the same

The more you play it the better it gets, because you get better and understand the game more. Really the only problem with Mordhau I see right now are the somewhat weird hitboxes that are really hard to get used to and balancing issues. Balancing issues will be fixed as soon as the perk system rolls in and hitboxes will be tweaked I am sure. I really don't see why you would think Mordhau is worse than Slasher, I don't understand why you would even compare them because they are different to the core

I am absolutely amazed by how Triternion took on ping/latency. I've played with 120-150 ping and NEVER felt ANY lag or delay whatsoever, it felt so smooth. Like, a 150 ping in Mordhau feels like 60-70 ping in Chivalry and literally 0 lag. I have no idea how they did this but this alone is a reason for me to love this game eternally, because that's like the first game ever where I can play on EU servers normally

I have 20 hours in this game and THE ONLY lag I ever experienced was some guy teleporting like 1 meter away from me. That's it

80 201
  • 2
  • 17 Sep '17
 Seseau

I'm a noob, but I too agree that the parrying hitbox is slightly too big. It would benefit from being made tighter, especially since on good ping, parrying is literally instantaneous and allows you to wait until the very last second to parry.

This is especially obvious when you try to go for the opponent's feet, and the guy very evidently parries in his upper body, yet blocks the blow. I don't even think it needs to be made that much tighter, just a bit less forgiving. The absence of delay makes it entirely OK to require a bit more accuracy in parrying, IMO.

edit: I can't say I have had the same experience with lag though. I'm currently in Japan and try to play on AUS/US servers, with 150+ ping and it makes parrying extremely inconsistent. When I play on ~28-40 ping or in local, I can parry at the last second. On 150 ping, I have to weirdly anticipate half if not more of my parries, leaving me very open to feints. I also consistently get the yellow chain icon. But that's just life; soon I'll be moving back to Europe and I suspect the problem won't be present on EU servers.

67 158
  • 17 Sep '17
 Flippy

As someone who played Slasher, Mordhau is just a flat improvement. I don't see how you could possibly convince yourself that Slasher was better in any way.

Conscript 4564 6302
  • 17 Sep '17
 vanguard

@Seseau said:
I'm a noob, but I too agree that the parrying hitbox is slightly too big. It would benefit from being made tighter, especially since on good ping, parrying is literally instantaneous and allows you to wait until the very last second to parry.

This is especially obvious when you try to go for the opponent's feet, and the guy very evidently parries in his upper body, yet blocks the blow. I don't even think it needs to be made that much tighter, just a bit less forgiving. The absence of delay makes it entirely OK to require a bit more accuracy in parrying, IMO.

edit: I can't say I have had the same experience with lag though. I'm currently in Japan and try to play on AUS/US servers, with 150+ ping and it makes parrying extremely inconsistent. When I play on ~28-40 ping or in local, I can parry at the last second. On 150 ping, I have to weirdly anticipate half if not more of my parries, leaving me very open to feints. I also consistently get the yellow chain icon. But that's just life; soon I'll be moving back to Europe and I suspect the problem won't be present on EU servers.

What I meant by playable is that, well, its kinda playable really. If you compensate the lag a bit, its possible to have a somewhat reasonable experience imho. Like, chiv with 150 ping is literally unplayable, CS is the same. Rising Storm and Red Orchestra, on the other hand, seems to deal WAY better with lag and while yes it is cancer to play with 250 ping on that game, it is more then possible to do so and still have a great experience

Mordhau seems to be like Rising Storm on this aspect. It sucks to play with high ping and its sort of a pain in the ass, but its possible if you manage to compensate the lag a bit and once you do that, its fun even. Has a limit though, one can only take so much lag. I usually play a few matches then go back sparring with bots because I'm afraid it will even mess with how I perceive timings in general, as I still learning the game.

The maximum playable ping for me was 160. More then this and footwork gets way too fucked up tbh everything gets really weird, seems like my windup and release take longer/are out of scync and so is the foward movement after attacking. I don't even know how to explain tbh, its really weird compared to 0 ping while playing with bots.

Knight 697 1611
  • 2
  • 17 Sep '17
 das

@Flippy said:
As someone who played Slasher, Mordhau is just a flat improvement. I don't see how you could possibly convince yourself that Slasher was better in any way.

The only things I can see a few people preferring about Slasher are the more Chivalry-esque drags, the side/back-hopping (after all, there are people who like MAA and reverse overheads), and the Chivalry fisheye lens FOVs.

But everything else is pretty much objectively better... unless you straight up don't like new mechanics like morphing. Then you probably won't like Mordhau no matter what happens to it.

3234 4264
  • 5
  • 17 Sep '17
 Havoc

@marox said:
Please give more details, no need to pull any punches.

Compiled (edited/paraphrased) list of gripes or statements/suggestions from a few anonymous users. (INCOMPLETE LIST)

  • The customization list (for armor) is confusing in terms of organization, it lacks basic options for sorting armor tiers, or even alphabetically, a much better system would be to select the armor tier first, defaulting to a standard, then selecting the model type from there. You can look back to the third dev blog for an example of such a system.

  • Mordhau needs either visual GUI or 1st person animation feedback in so players know specifically what attack angle they'll activate using a swing before the windup.

  • Some of the armor imported from slasher looks awful and very out of place (Bassinet and Sabatons)

  • You get knocked back a bit too much when you're hit

  • Mordhau also needs deadzone options or whatever system is being used to determine attack direction adjustment options as currently having hard keybindings for the attack directions is better, at the cost of making some players limited in their attacks.

  • Stabs are awkward using mouse directional stabs, as you'll often get the incorrect stab attack angle out, being forced to rebind each stab attack angle to mitigate this issue is not a solution. We need options to adjust our mouse dead zones, and either UI or animation feedback before the wind-up to know which direction we'll stab at.

  • Parrying is very easy at the moment, and feels more akin to chiv as an all-compassing hitbox, rather than something that needs to be aimed at an opponent's weapon. It's also a bit too easy to fall back to a parry if you've made a mistake.

  • Many animations, especially animation blends with fast weapons confuse players as the wind-ups look very similar to each other. Players have also mentioned that a stabs are being camouflaged as swings, as the wind-ups for certain weapons look similar.

  • The wind-up mechanic for weapons is awkward as the attacks themselves are very quick. It's gotten to the point where a majority of players aren't reacting to visual cues, but rather the auditory grunt to parry. The wind-up also presents another issue that due to certain wind-up animations looking similar, players may easily attack angles for other types of attack angles, the is exemplified when an opponent attacks from the side, jumps, crouches, and/or adjusts their torso angle and brings in their attack to further confuse their target.

  • Don't lose stamina with a missed swing if you hit the ground or an object

  • Under Swings being able hit behind an opponent's legs

  • Thrown mace does more damage than the other thrown weapons

  • Stabs are too fast, stab visual model doesn't match up with the stab tracers (looks like you're still stabbing but the hit tracer ends) stabs need a more aggressive visual animation to signify and convey solidly that the stab is no longer active to the player; forcing your stab's wind-up into another player for instant connection/no time to react.

  • Acceleration making mordhau awkward with a lot of exploitable movements, makes being aggressive the better option. Being able to use the attack acceleration to greatly enhance speed such as when sprinting, or to even avoid attacks. Silly techniques such as "In & Out" in which you can use the acceleration to get out of an opponent's attack range, and then get back with-in your attack range. Stupidly useful in group fights allowing you to quickly change targets, making one opponent miss their swing, whilst hitting another. Also makes footwork a lot more awkward to judge as players can "zoom in" increasing their attack range amazingly with the acceleration.

  • Wind-up with lightning fast attacks, weapons like the arming sword up close have very fast attacks, to the point where players are listening to the audio grunt rather than reacting to the actual attack animations

  • Wind-up mechanics actually make drags a lot more effective for slower weapons, coupled with the faster swings

  • Parries way too easy to perform

  • Zweihander being too effective, especially against plate armor, no one using the alt-grip, everyone just spamming it whilst speeding across the map

  • Alt Longsword (mordhau grip) stabs too fast and does a bit more damage than it should

  • Stabs coming from the side often look like weapon swings

  • Combat getting bogged-down/delayed, resulting in players either having to gamble or feint to progress combat

  • Often after an opponent's parry, an opponent's weapon will visually look completely still then they'll swing after a very short wind-up. (Clarification: Riposte overheads whilst looking down connect almost instantly especially when the weapon-hitbox activates inside the player or right after the short wind-up)

  • Forcing your weapon models into opponents so weapon hitboxes instantly connect

  • Certain two handed weapons, such as the zweihander, can cover close to 360° of a player using an overhead rainbow

  • Difficult to tell what attacks your opponents are doing up close due

  • Feinting~parry and morph~parry meta

  • Chambers greatly unrewarding

  • Still able to do very effective waterfalls

  • Quarterstaff animations up close are very "spastic" and difficult to understand, especially due to the small wind-up, and very fast swings.

  • SDK needs to be released during the beta

  • Overheads often not connecting with players despite the 1st person model clipping through an opponent.

  • Players getting pushed way too far when they're hit by an opponent's weapon.

  • No incentive to not spam crouches

  • No looping animations

  • Spamming attacks seems to be very effective combined with attack acceleration.

  • Plate armor extremely effective, especially due to attack acceleration which greatly extends attack range, but is often used to enhance movement speed and allow plate armor users to zoom in and out of a melee easily switching targets and dodging attacks.

  • When you go naked with a spear and spam stabs and no one can reach you or catch up with you, zoom zoom.

  • Kicks being ineffective tools to prevent facehuggers, especially due to attack acceleration

  • Overhand and underhand attacks being difficult to interpret up close due to the wind-up animations, especially when someone is turned sideways at you or morphs into it.

  • Some weapons like the halberd have very slow wind-ups but very fast attacks making them especially difficult to counter when feints and morphs are involved, or when they force their stab wind-up inside of you.

  • Almost no-one uses the alt-grip on the Zweihander, Battleaxe, Eveningstar, or Greatsword as the drag and range is a lot more effective and useful than the increased swing speed.

  • Map-pickup weapons don't respawn

  • Overhands and underhands are difficult to read due to the wind-up animations, and it's gotten to the point where a lot of players are only just chaining those attack types whilst dragging or fainting/morphing using four keybinds. It looks silly, it plays silly, but it's very effective and awful to fight against.

  • Mordhau will often crash if you play on fullscreen and ALT TAB

  • CAN'T SKIP THE * SPLASH SCREENS

  • No descriptions for the weapon types?

  • No bloody footprints when you walk through a blood puddle /refund

  • WTF, how come the kickstarter stuff was available in an earlier showcased build of Mordhau but not now?

  • Many of the one handed weapons, such as the arming sword, are lighting fast and is extremely difficult to parry up close, as often the attacks themselves only last for 3 or 4 frames when they connect to you. This is especially bad when either the wind-up is obfuscated, looks awkward due to morphing, or the weapon model is forced into a player during or right after the wind-up.

  • I keep missing my stabs because it comes out in the wrong direction, and by the time I swing it into an opponent they either zoomed off to the side, or the stab ends even though my stab is going through them.

  • No point in clash fighting as the faster weapon will win

  • Lack of Dev interaction besides crushed occasionally hopping into discord

  • Feinting/Morphing too effective

  • Being able to spam jump/crouch attack spamming without issue

  • Can't ever safely connect my kick against someone when they're face hugging me, sprinting at my side using the attack acceleration

  • Have to mash my inputs after being stunned

  • Sometimes combo attack queuing will ignore my cancel inputs even before the wind-up of the next attack will commence

  • Spamming attacks is really good at the moment since you fly across the map with speed

  • Being able to flourish into a stab or a stab morph

  • Shields a bit too effective especially combined with plate armor

  • Players fighting like jackhammers on crack spasming out to try to confuse you, with morphing and feints it's way too good

  • Awkward to judge an opponent's attack range due to the attack acceleration

  • Feinting and morphing animation spam up close confuses my old man brain

  • The jump feels like you're on the moon