Mordhau

Feints

Knight 928 2545
  • 12 Oct '17
 Pred

@das said:

@A.L.I.E.N said:
Good luck chambering or reading the feints of some one who uses the battle axe with the close grip and accelerates the swings.

Don't be so quick to brush this off, ALIEN has a point. Fast weapons and grips are so fast that if you try to chamber them semi-late like you would against most 2h'ers, a feint into a real attack might flinch you before your chamber attempt would hit them.

The biggest weapon that has done it to me when I was trying to chamber was regular grip Longsword so I assume at least every one hander can do that as well.

Now, that was only for chamber attempts, but when you go for an old fashioned read and punish chances are you'll be flinched by their next attack more often than not.

Baron 291 224
  • 12 Oct '17
 Esa1996

@Jax said:

@kEsa1996 said:
Slowing down the speed at which you can attack after a feint would be one way to make feints less OP

And ruin them at higher skill levels.

@kEsa1996 said:
The problem with feints is that, against inexperienced players, they are really over powered. A really easy to perform move should not get you a free hit on most people nearly without fail especially as the counter to said move is really hard against players who can drag etc.

Certain mechanics have more or less effect at different points on the skill curve - for example chamber-morph-feints can't do anything against a new player that a chamber-feint would accomplish - a new player is going to parry, not counterchamber. ChMF's work on better players since they'll be trying to counterchamber, see the morph, and FTP, allowing you to get a hit in.

Feints happen to be really good against a player that isn't experienced, and if two new or low-skill players are fighting each other the winner will be the one who can react to and defend from feints the best. That tactic won't be as viable at higher levels of play, and they will adapt to the meta as they progress.

This isn't a bad thing at all, there's a lot of great games with the same fundamental system. The issues isn't two new players fighting each other and both being susceptible to/ relying on feints, but a low-skill player and high-skill player fighting one another, and that concern is resolved easily with matchmaking.

Could be slowing them down would nerf them too much on higher levels. Allowing us to attempt a chamber even from parry recovery wouldn't be too bad an idea IMO.

Duke 5538 13212
  • 12 Oct '17
 Jax — Community Manager

I really like how feints and chambers play out when you've got a small weapon against a really long one - ie battleaxe vs spear. It's super fun when the spear guy is baiting you to stab chamber and you have to figure out which stab you can actually chamber and actually hit with, otherwise you need to cftp to close distance. Makes things really tense, especially when there's like 20 seconds of this and then I go in and OHK naked spearboi heads with a baxe or greatsword.

Duke 5538 13212
  • 1
  • 12 Oct '17
 Jax — Community Manager

@kEsa1996 said:

@Jax said:

@kEsa1996 said:
Slowing down the speed at which you can attack after a feint would be one way to make feints less OP

And ruin them at higher skill levels.

@kEsa1996 said:
The problem with feints is that, against inexperienced players, they are really over powered. A really easy to perform move should not get you a free hit on most people nearly without fail especially as the counter to said move is really hard against players who can drag etc.

Certain mechanics have more or less effect at different points on the skill curve - for example chamber-morph-feints can't do anything against a new player that a chamber-feint would accomplish - a new player is going to parry, not counterchamber. ChMF's work on better players since they'll be trying to counterchamber, see the morph, and FTP, allowing you to get a hit in.

Feints happen to be really good against a player that isn't experienced, and if two new or low-skill players are fighting each other the winner will be the one who can react to and defend from feints the best. That tactic won't be as viable at higher levels of play, and they will adapt to the meta as they progress.

This isn't a bad thing at all, there's a lot of great games with the same fundamental system. The issues isn't two new players fighting each other and both being susceptible to/ relying on feints, but a low-skill player and high-skill player fighting one another, and that concern is resolved easily with matchmaking.

Could be slowing them down would nerf them too much on higher levels. Allowing us to attempt a chamber even from parry recovery wouldn't be too bad an idea IMO.

attempting a chamber from parry means you can almost simultaneously parry and attack, which means I'd just hit RMB and attack and be untouchable. You wouldn't be able to punish an enemy who panic parries. If anything is needed, just slight value changes. We need to wait for anims to be done to see how things play out when everything is more readable.

414 418
  • 12 Oct '17
 nohbdy

@das said:

@A.L.I.E.N said:
Good luck chambering or reading the feints of some one who uses the battle axe with the close grip and accelerates the swings.

Don't be so quick to brush this off, ALIEN has a point. Fast weapons and grips are so fast that if you try to chamber them semi-late like you would against most 2h'ers, a feint into a real attack might flinch you before your chamber attempt would hit them. Gauntlet baited some late chambers out of me (Longsword) using just the thing ALIEN described: short-gripped battleaxe. And many others have done it to me intentionally (moepork and Oberyn with spear, I often approach with stab chamber attempts and feint them if they feinted/I feel they're too far away or they attack again and will flinch me first so I don't commit to a bad stab/whiff) and unintentionally (any 1h user) as well. I suppose the adjustment to be made here is to attempt to chamber earlier against weapons that are so fast that they can't drag, thus the 200ms window is less restricting.

At any rate, I don't think it's necessarily a problem with the game but a new, uncharted skill territory to explore. It's a bit frustrating at times but also novel and fun to learn how to defend against weapons besides 2h swords. These weapons do tend to be short too, so you do have those precious extra milliseconds to wait before attempting a chamber or parrying when playing your distance.

It depends on how late into the windup they feint. You generally can only bait chambers with a feint if you feint early in the windup, which is readable even it's a fast weapon.

396 454
  • 13 Oct '17
 JasonBourne

@Jax said:
I really like how feints and chambers play out when you've got a small weapon against a really long one - ie battleaxe vs spear. It's super fun when the spear guy is baiting you to stab chamber and you have to figure out which stab you can actually chamber and actually hit with, otherwise you need to cftp to close distance. Makes things really tense, especially when there's like 20 seconds of this and then I go in and OHK naked spearboi heads with a baxe or greatsword.

Or a dagger vs GS. I was out of stamina and I took my dagger, stab chamber and I killed him lol it was superfast.

18 16
  • 27 Mar '18
 Underainy

To be honest im not even gonna play the game

Mercenary 2193 3913
  • 27 Mar '18
 EruTheTeapot

Good, bye. Since you won't listen to people learn about feints..

Conscript 4564 6302
  • 27 Mar '18
 vanguard

@Underainy said:
To be honest im not even gonna play the game

Why man? Just keep playing it for fun and eventually you should get used to how things looks/plays tbh. Even when I'm being destroyed in this game I can have fun, but I can see how frustrating it can be. I'd say it should get more fun when the game releases, because there will be a fuckload of noobs everywhere so you can play without tryharding, just roleplay or feel like you are melee Jesus because you destroy all of them etc.

Baron 582 972
  • 1
  • 28 Mar '18
 lash

@Underainy said:
To be honest im not even gonna play the game

Just wait and see what the devs have in store for the more casual players.

I get destroyed by feint spam all the time. Current game modes favor the skilled way more, but when you get to play some objectives, it might change - also, archers could be pretty usefull for harassing the pros ;)

Baron 1551 2087
  • 1
  • 28 Mar '18
 yourcrippledson

@LuxCandidus said:
The problem is they require no skill to perform, and tremendous skill to counter.

Mentioning the existence of chambers as if it somehow justifies feints is absurd. The only way to counter feints with chambers is to chamber every single attack and never once parry (which is unreasonable) or to get lucky by deciding to chamber at the same time your opponent decided to feint.

Most attacks are far too quick to wait until the last possible moment to react accordingly. Feints with an eveningstar are manageable because you have plenty of time to react, but I dare you to try chambering an arming sword swing, especially if your opponent decides to accelerate their attack.

Dodging and kicking are good ways to shut down an attack after a feint, and as mechanics I love them, but how about we correct the unfair mechanic rather than justifying it because there are a few fair mechanics one can employ against it?

I have no doubt Chivalry veterans and players with competitive experience are able to deal with feints. The problem is that every single person without said experience is going to be defenseless against them, and saying "Git gud stop whining" is not a valid excuse to dismiss complaints about a mechanic which should be altered in some way. Every other combat mechanic is fair and losing to it feels like the result of making a mistake, but losing to a feint or morph feels like you have been cheated.

I like how people were complaining about this on day one. Like do you not understand that your brain needs to learn things? Learn the animations. Learn the timings. Read your opponent. Day one you can't read feints and you post on the forum trying to Nerf game mechanics lol.

This shit is why the devs went so quiet for so long... people are idiots.

Knight 616 2047
  • 28 Mar '18
 LuxCandidus

And after more than six months my opinion has not changed. Good dismissal of everything I said, by the way.

Baron 1608 5109
  • 28 Mar '18
 Lincs

I feel like I should say something smarmy and ranty to keep with the theme of my OP here, but I can't. I can't support the necromancer or the condescension he heaped on top of his words. Why are people like this

Baron 1551 2087
  • 4
  • 28 Mar '18
 yourcrippledson

@LuxCandidus said:
And after more than six months my opinion has not changed. Good dismissal of everything I said, by the way.

A feint is something you have to train your reactions to deal with. Train over hours and hours. Maybe hundreds even.. So saying feints need to change because you can't read them hour zero is dumb and silly.

Not surprised that the opinion you prematurely malformed hasn't changed, it is almost like your opinion isn't based on game balance but brain balance.

Baron 1608 5109
  • 29 Mar '18
 Lincs

Crush, can you lock this please? It died a long time ago, and people are being mean.

Knight 616 2047
  • 29 Mar '18
 LuxCandidus

@yourcrippledson said:
A feint is something you have to train your reactions to deal with. Train over hours and hours. Maybe hundreds even.. So saying feints need to change because you can't read them hour zero is dumb and silly.

Not surprised that the opinion you formed prematurely hasn't changed, it is almost like your opinion isn't based on game balance but brain balance.

I do not know who was cruel enough to give you the impression you are in any position to call others idiots, but after half a year of feints being a pertinent topic you have been the only drooling nitwit incapable of grasping even the premises of the opposing arguments. In fact you are so blinded by your own bias that you are able to ignore entire pages of discussion outlining players' issues with feints by dismissing them outright, which you did a second time just now.

I have this to say to everyone else: you have already begun to see uninitiated players joining the game, playing for a while, and having their fun completely crushed by someone who knows how to press 'Q', leaving and never returning again. You know full well that once the game launches, the vast majority of new players will be driven away by mechanics such as feinting in its current state. Unless you want the playerbase to consist of only veterans, you cannot turn a blind eye to mechanics such as this just because they become manageable after two hundred hours. The average person is not going to waste two hundred hours of their time to not die whenever their opponent decides to press the 'I win' button.

Baron 582 972
  • 1
  • 29 Mar '18
 lash

@LuxCandidus said:

I have this to say to everyone else: .....

This is true tho, lets not fool ourselves. Almost nobody is playing the game and it won't be just for lack of content and simple TDM. Countre-strike is the same TDM everytime as well and people still play it en masse. That being said, I'm not saying feinting is the sole reason. But it sure is the most visible to me.

I hate feints, i get frustrated by them. But since I endured this in chivalry and proceeded past the 200 hours I kind of, sometimes... play game or two here. But still get little mad becouse everyone is feinting. In chivalry at least there was a % of people that just simply not used it.

Of course my stand is from POV of more casual player.

Baron 582 972
  • 2
  • 29 Mar '18
 lash

nvm double postm, sry

301 875
  • 1
  • 29 Mar '18
 Naleaus

I don't see feints as being the sole reason new players quit so far. The mass majority of new players I've seen leave in NA aren't because of any one specific mechanic, but that they're crushed easily and have only the people that play a lot/got good early on to play against. You can remove feinting entirely, a new player will get all their attacks chambered, if they're allowed to attack at all, and then murdered with drags and morphs.

The problem is one of skill disparity. Once new players can play with other newbs in matchmaking or in big game modes, it won't be as bad for them to learn gradually. Till then, RIP new players without patience to learn through dying.

With that said, there are things to be done that'll affect feints and the difficulty of reading them. Animation updates will help, any changes that make accels more readable, better sound cues, etc. But feinting itself is necessary and won't be going anywhere.

Knight 246 1084
  • 29 Mar '18
 Corsario

From the group of 5 friends that bought the Alpha (all Chiv veterans with 1500 + hours), I'm the only one playing the game half an hour every now and then. The rest stopped playing after the second week and all of them gave me the same answer: feints and morphs "están rotos"... they are broken, they are too easy to use by any player and pose a too heavy burden on the opponent at a minimal cost (unless you are part of the select group of players that overcomes the 200 hours "please brainwash yourself into not parrying but chambering", which makes no sense at all for newcomers).
I think the main problem is that most casual and semi-vet players in Chiv did not feint at all (for chivalrous and non-chivalrous reasons) and now fall into a heavy feinting game which kills the rest of the combat aspects and probably the beauty of the fight (now it's less about timing and more about reading continuous baiting movements).
I'm just afraid a "casual mod" that punishes feints much more, or even removes them, might be more succesful than the core game itself.