Mordhau

Feints

Conscript 4564 6301
  • 30 Mar '18
 vanguard

@RingMaster said:

@vanguard said:
To talk about the fun factor of the game, well, imho the most fun thing there is in both mordhau and chiv is to outplay someone. Second to that is the roleplay factor imho.

I can tell you by experience that chiv got more and more fun the better I got, because I could outplay people more often.

So you see comrade, in a noob X noob duel, both will use feints pretty badly and most of the time feinting leaves noobs more vulnerable, specially against other noobos, because these people only fucking spam lmb and pray. Point being, when a noob plays against another noob, I don't think that there is a particular mechanic that is frustrating.

I'd say that at this moment it is really frustrating not because of the mechanics themselves, but because you are having to learn the game against people who mastered good part of it already.

So idk, a lot of people might be frustrated because they are missing a core part of the fun in this game, that is to outplay a opponent. I think that feints gets called out more then other mechanics because at first glance it is bloody op as fuck, and veterans using it can feel infuriating and unfair.

Idk thou tbh I could be talking mad shit here

I should elaborate what i mean between noob vs noob, what i really mean are players who aren't god tier, should've been more clear with that.

So when a "noob" vs "noob" square off, let's say they are well versed in most mechanics in the game, they can chamber normal attacks consistently, they have above average reaction times and can drag and accel while also being able to read the basic attacking animations most of the time (i literally just explained myself).

I'm playing against someone who is similiar my skill level so we are both on equal footing, dying to a drag that i couldn't hope to distinguish or a lame feint or a dodgy animation isn't (imo) fun, likewise, now i think this is key here and i've said this before, KILLING someone else, that's right, "beating" your opponent isn't all that fun either, because you know when you dragged or accel'd on them you know they couldn't read the animation because they aren't a god at the game, or if you did a lame feint or riposte feint or on their screen you did a wacky animation, you didn't as you said "outplay" them, you bullshitted yourway into another hit and won.

I see your point tbh and I agree to a great extent, but look into a practical situation with drags, for example. You against a dude in the same skill level as you, lets suppose you are more versed into dragging but he is a bit more into feinting, - although you both are about the same skill level, these differences happens when you compare players due to their experience learning the game, what killed them the most, what they find interesting to use etc.

In your point of view, outplaying him could mean you did that real fine subtle drag that you practiced for a long time you know. For him, outplaying you might mean giving a few accels to make you expect fast shit, then start feinting you.

Do you see how both sides have a chance to think that what killed them is bullshit? A well performed drag in the right moment tends to be really hard to read, a well performed feint can look quite unfair when combined with initiative pressure and general agressivness.

What I'm trying to say here, is that there is a very thin line between bullshit animations/mechanics, and using these things in a effective way.

I absolutely agree with your sentiment that killing people with bullshit feels dumb, I remember halberd backswings from chivalry giving me this. What we need to see is that if feints are effectively a unfair and unfun thing, which leads us to the problem that a big part of the playtest people are veterans and there is not so many fresh people around, which does cause a effect on how these new people percieve the mechanics imho. This is probably something that ends up giving more weight to veteran's opinions about the mechanics along with other factors, but the thing is, how newer people percieve the mechanics might not be real, in a way that, if they played in a different envyronment, with more new players and say, a big map full of shit to do, they could end up having another opinion about said mechanics. It is what people have been saying, at the moment the game is very hostile to newer players and I'm sure this ends up affecting how they percieve the mechanics.

Imho we need time. Feints can be fixed after release, and after release we will have the perfect lab to observe how the mechanics behave and handle with new players.

As a no life chiv veteran I tell you, feints fuck me up big time here in mordhau, but I also can avoid a lot of them, enough so it doesn't feel cheap to me. It is essentialy a very hard thing to deal with and it is frustrating even for me man, ask Frise how many times I politely asked him to kill himself lmao, but at the same time I find it fucking fun when I can stomp all over people using them, I know exactly how they feel lol, it is my opinion that feints generaly makes the game more fun AND frustrating, while adding a whole new layer of possible mindgames, footwork, gambles etc.

Baron 1607 5108
  • 30 Mar '18
 Lincs

Holy shit guys

Baron 1551 2086
  • 2
  • 30 Mar '18
 yourcrippledson

@RingMaster said:

@yourcrippledson said:

Seems like bullshit that feints are why people aren't playing. Atm all mordhau has is the equivalent of the ffa duel servers in chiv. And how many casuals hung around in there very long in chivalry? None. Unless you wanted to get good. So it is like 99.9% lack of game modes, maps, other nubs, unfinished mechanics. And like 0.1% directly because of feints.

Feints aren't the only reason, just like you said "just going to get raped by drags and footwork anyway.". funky animations, distinguishing between drags and accels are also why. Those culminate into the combat not being enjoyable for the casuals.

Obviously it's broken up between why 99% of backers aren't playing, but surely you can't think combat is in an ok state and that "99.9%" of players are MIA purely because of the lack of content, especially when you see how frequent the topic of balance, feints, drags, animations and more are on these forums. Thinking that way is dangerous.

The mechanics themselves don't make it "not enjoyable". Fighting someone who is adept at the mechanics when you aren't is what makes it not fun...

Mordhau alpha leaves absolutely nothing for nubs to do except duel yard. Don't matter what mechanics are in the game, if there is nothing for nubs to do but duel, they aren't sticking around.

Nubs are there for gore and game modes and swinging randomly like this is dynasty worriers. There is nothing for nubs to do except join a duel yard. How popular do you think chiv would be right now if there was only duel servers? Think about how popular a place "ffa duel servers" are for nubs in chiv. A pace where nubs go to leave immediately.

I think the combat is in a good state because i enjoy using it. It needs tweaks but it is fun. A lot of people think it is fun.

What specific changes are you advocating for?? No matter what you change to make it "easier", a nub sucks because he is new. Eliminating mechanics to help players starting will effect the feel of the end game far more drastically. Going to have to die to learn either way, only difference is in the game i want, all the hours of suffering as a nub is rewarded with skill sets and tools you can be proud of mastering and derive satisfaction in utilizing. And in yours we are all on an artificially level playing field, and it is just minecraft pvp.

Count 331 1394
  • 30 Mar '18
 RingMaster

@vanguard said:

I see your point tbh and I agree to a great extent, but look into a practical situation with drags, for example. You against a dude in the same skill level as you, lets suppose you are more versed into dragging but he is a bit more into feinting, - although you both are about the same skill level, these differences happens when you compare players due to their experience learning the game, what killed them the most, what they find interesting to use etc.

In your point of view, outplaying him could mean you did that real fine subtle drag that you practiced for a long time you know. For him, outplaying you might mean giving a few accels to make you expect fast shit, then start feinting you.

Do you see how both sides have a chance to think that what killed them is bullshit? A well performed drag in the right moment tends to be really hard to read, a well performed feint can look quite unfair when combined with initiative pressure and general agressivness.

What I'm trying to say here, is that there is a very thin line between bullshit animations/mechanics, and using these things in a effective way.

I absolutely agree with your sentiment that killing people with bullshit feels dumb, I remember halberd backswings from chivalry giving me this. What we need to see is that if feints are effectively a unfair and unfun thing, which leads us to the problem that a big part of the playtest people are veterans and there is not so many fresh people around, which does cause a effect on how these new people percieve the mechanics imho. This is probably something that ends up giving more weight to veteran's opinions about the mechanics along with other factors, but the thing is, how newer people percieve the mechanics might not be real, in a way that, if they played in a different envyronment, with more new players and say, a big map full of shit to do, they could end up having another opinion about said mechanics. It is what people have been saying, at the moment the game is very hostile to newer players and I'm sure this ends up affecting how they percieve the mechanics.

Imho we need time. Feints can be fixed after release, and after release we will have the perfect lab to observe how the mechanics behave and handle with new players.

As a no life chiv veteran I tell you, feints fuck me up big time here in mordhau, but I also can avoid a lot of them, enough so it doesn't feel cheap to me. It is essentialy a very hard thing to deal with and it is frustrating even for me man, ask Frise how many times I politely asked him to kill himself lmao, but at the same time I find it fucking fun when I can stomp all over people using them, I know exactly how they feel lol, it is my opinion that feints generaly makes the game more fun AND frustrating, while adding a whole new layer of possible mindgames, footwork, gambles etc.

Yea i absoultely agree with all of that, the dream is to have it so nothing feels lame on either side of the fight, but that's gonna be pretty much impossible to please everyone, it's a tough one. What i'm imagining is the casual side will need to have the basic understanding of the game's "bullshit" before they start playing if that makes sense, so they don't jump in thinking it's just taking turns to swing a sword, because that's exactly what happened with the beta backers jumping in, they got turned off because they were dying to the "bullshit", but at the same time, some of the stuff they died to they couldn't have dreamed of being able to beat anyways, be it them vs a veteran or vs a casual who accidently did a funky animation or drag or something.

This issue is finicky one, damn.

Duke 5528 13172
  • 30 Mar '18
 Jax — Community Manager

I think expectations need to be set -

Market Dark Souls as a "hard game" or CSGO as "skill based" and people lap it up.

Mordhau needs to be marketed as being fun for casuals (frontline will be great for that) but they cannot shybaway from saying the game is hard or competitive.

Couple people expecting the game to be hard (and thus they'll have to learn) with good in game stats (done) and proper tutorials, and I think new players will feel much better.

That being said, mechanics have to be consistent. That's why feints and riposte are getting looked at AFAIK and drags have been made to be pretty acceptable. You don't want mordhau to be hard in an unreadable or cheesy way where you're fighting the game, instead it should be difficult based on your opponent with a clear ruleset to the combat.

Baron 1607 5108
  • 30 Mar '18
 Lincs

@Jax said:
I think expectations need to be set -

Market Dark Souls as a "hard game" or CSGO as "skill based" and people lap it up.

Mordhau needs to be marketed as being fun for casuals (frontline will be great for that) but they cannot shybaway from saying the game is hard or competitive.

Couple people expecting the game to be hard (and thus they'll have to learn) with good in game stats (done) and proper tutorials, and I think new players will feel much better.

That being said, mechanics have to be consistent. That's why feints and riposte are getting looked at AFAIK and drags have been made to be pretty acceptable. You don't want mordhau to be hard in an unreadable or cheesy way where you're fighting the game, instead it should be difficult based on your opponent with a clear ruleset to the combat.

The best phrase to use when giving an elevator pitch on Mordhau is "easy to learn, difficult to master"

It applies to similar games that are fun to mess around with but have insanely high skill ceilings, like TF2. It should give people the right kind of expectations.

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  • 1
  • 30 Mar '18
 s522662

Mordhau needs to be marketed as being fun for casuals

Rip mordhau comp scene, and thank you

Conscript 4564 6301
  • 2
  • 30 Mar '18
 vanguard

@RingMaster said:

@vanguard said:

I see your point tbh and I agree to a great extent, but look into a practical situation with drags, for example. You against a dude in the same skill level as you, lets suppose you are more versed into dragging but he is a bit more into feinting, - although you both are about the same skill level, these differences happens when you compare players due to their experience learning the game, what killed them the most, what they find interesting to use etc.

In your point of view, outplaying him could mean you did that real fine subtle drag that you practiced for a long time you know. For him, outplaying you might mean giving a few accels to make you expect fast shit, then start feinting you.

Do you see how both sides have a chance to think that what killed them is bullshit? A well performed drag in the right moment tends to be really hard to read, a well performed feint can look quite unfair when combined with initiative pressure and general agressivness.

What I'm trying to say here, is that there is a very thin line between bullshit animations/mechanics, and using these things in a effective way.

I absolutely agree with your sentiment that killing people with bullshit feels dumb, I remember halberd backswings from chivalry giving me this. What we need to see is that if feints are effectively a unfair and unfun thing, which leads us to the problem that a big part of the playtest people are veterans and there is not so many fresh people around, which does cause a effect on how these new people percieve the mechanics imho. This is probably something that ends up giving more weight to veteran's opinions about the mechanics along with other factors, but the thing is, how newer people percieve the mechanics might not be real, in a way that, if they played in a different envyronment, with more new players and say, a big map full of shit to do, they could end up having another opinion about said mechanics. It is what people have been saying, at the moment the game is very hostile to newer players and I'm sure this ends up affecting how they percieve the mechanics.

Imho we need time. Feints can be fixed after release, and after release we will have the perfect lab to observe how the mechanics behave and handle with new players.

As a no life chiv veteran I tell you, feints fuck me up big time here in mordhau, but I also can avoid a lot of them, enough so it doesn't feel cheap to me. It is essentialy a very hard thing to deal with and it is frustrating even for me man, ask Frise how many times I politely asked him to kill himself lmao, but at the same time I find it fucking fun when I can stomp all over people using them, I know exactly how they feel lol, it is my opinion that feints generaly makes the game more fun AND frustrating, while adding a whole new layer of possible mindgames, footwork, gambles etc.

Yea i absoultely agree with all of that, the dream is to have it so nothing feels lame on either side of the fight, but that's gonna be pretty much impossible to please everyone, it's a tough one. What i'm imagining is the casual side will need to have the basic understanding of the game's "bullshit" before they start playing if that makes sense, so they don't jump in thinking it's just taking turns to swing a sword, because that's exactly what happened with the beta backers jumping in, they got turned off because they were dying to the "bullshit", but at the same time, some of the stuff they died to they couldn't have dreamed of being able to beat anyways, be it them vs a veteran or vs a casual who accidently did a funky animation or drag or something.

This issue is finicky one, damn.

Indeed brother it is a finicky issue. We, as a community, could help a lot in this by helping the devs with ideas on exercises and things to say and show on the tutorial. I really think that controled exercises can help A LOT newer players, like, you load up a scenario with a bot that will stand still and delay all kinds of attacks on you for example, this way you can see how it looks, memorize the timings and generaly experiment with what works or not against delayed attacks. This would be specially helpful if you can change the bot's weapon tbh.

Footwork imho is by far the most important though, and probably the harderst to think on exercises that cover it. Experimenting with the bots, I noticed that you can avoid their stabs by running into it. Like, his stab is coming to your right side, so what you do here is hold W+D and run towards his right side, in order to reach his back. You can do this very, very consistently and it is a good way to at least show one manuever that you can use that will greatly help you both reading feints and avoiding attacks. Against players this technic lose a lot of its effectiveness, but the idea here is only to show possibilities, you see. Spark creativity in the way people play etc, show how deep the game can get.

We already have the best tool to help newer players, that is decent bots. All we need is well thought scenarios that happens in practice on fights with human opponents, so we can recreate them in a controled envyronment in order to allow people to experiment with it.

Theorycraft is highly important in this imho. The game must present many concepts to newer players, ideas that expand your understanding of how to use various mechanics. A simple example is feinting, where the "theory" behind it shows you how you can use it both offensively and deffensively you see, and feints at first seems like a eminently offensive thing right, but it is just as important in defense tbh.

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I generally play mordhau passively, fully aware that the game rewards aggressive playstyles over passive. However, my ability to read feints and morphs is improving slowly. as impossible as it feels to counter feints i think there is light at the end of the tunnel.

Although i want to bring another issue up, what ive noticed with people who "overuse" feints and morphs is that their overall weapon accuracy is fairly low. its almost as if they arent in control of themselves and are just button mashing. Im fine with the devs wanting to reward aggression. but i believe a passive playstyle is just another way of saying "controlled aggression" while many associate the word with "turtling" or "stamina war".

As of right now, a lack of control will benefit you. hard to say if this benefit is learning curve related or on account of balance issues. The former solution is to wait for the playerbase to adapt to these allegedly "unskilled" players. the latter solution is to punish inaccurate aggression (missing attacks could take more stamina. you could take more damage after a failed feint attempt. missing a kick could stun you for longer)

in summary, mistakes should always be punished, aggressive mistakes should be punished harder. im not going to push any of these solutions, just some ideas to think about. im not too in to the comp scene, im happy with how the game is regardless of balance changes.

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  • 31 Mar '18
 Underainy

@vanguard said:

@Underainy said:
To be honest im not even gonna play the game

Why man? Just keep playing it for fun and eventually you should get used to how things looks/plays tbh. Even when I'm being destroyed in this game I can have fun, but I can see how frustrating it can be. I'd say it should get more fun when the game releases, because there will be a fuckload of noobs everywhere so you can play without tryharding, just roleplay or feel like you are melee Jesus because you destroy all of them etc.

See theres amount of autism i can take like in chiv that rainbow stuff was but i got used to it and it was actually pretty fun but feints are just aint fun to use aint fun to get tricked by its not like it i actually got outskilled its just a guy who Presses Q and thats it its not a guy who tryhards to rainbow attack you its actually doesnt get me mad but its in mordhau Everyone uses feints doesnt matter where..
eventully this game will turn out to be a duel simulator like chiv.

Knight 337 777
  • 31 Mar '18
 AngelEyes

My biggest fear of Mordhau isn't the conception when new players hit at launch. That's very and important and everything but the next step is just as important because they are two sides of the same coin and that is player retention. They feed off each other.

Mordhau deserves better than being another Chivalry or Darkfall ego infested adolescent fiesta with only 2k peek players.

Baron 1551 2086
  • 1
  • 31 Mar '18
 yourcrippledson

The almighty Feint is the "Dark Energy" of mordhau, 73% of all the matter and energy in the universe consists of feints, and it couldn't exist without them, yet it pushes us all apart.

It is marginalizing other game mechanics that are arguably more fun and skill based.

Lowering the skill ceiling for one component doesn't necessarily lower it for the whole game, it just has to be done for the right reasons. It can increase the potential for other mechanics and open doors to new techniques and methods of gameplay. Even raising the skill ceiling overall...

Knight 101 371
  • 1 Apr '18
 McMercy

idot nobs dont panic block

Knight 240 388
  • 3 Apr '18
 NitroSperg6K

Haha are people honestly still having trouble with feints like they're not x50 times easier to read than chiv and aren't susceptible to gamble "chambers"

Count 671 1131
  • 5 Apr '18
 Zexis

@Lincs said:

@crushed said:
Another big problem from the current initial feint windows is very late feint to parries, which means theres no commitment to attacks and you cant use good timing to simply get a hit in.

This right here is the big one for me. It makes me so angry when I go to punish someone missing their strike, and they immediately feint and parry it. Like they're unhittable.

Remember that cftp comes at a heavy stam cost.
-missed strike
-feint
-parry hit
all of that drains stam. Do it too much and you will stam out, depending of course on the weapons involved.

though this is less a factor in team fights where it's generally easier to back off a moment to regen stam - not counting higher level skirms where there's more clusters of duels with some target switching as opposed to pub chaos

Conscript 192 478
  • 24 Jun '18
 Shovonem

The problem is that most of the alpha testers are Chiv veterans with a lot of hours. It's 'broken' because you don't know how to deal with it. Hopefully after release, ranked matchmaking will solve that.

On a side note though, any competitive game should have certain skills that are very hard to master for example in Chivalry reading feints was probably one of the hardest things to do in the game. These kind of things separate skills between casual and competitive players.

A lot of new players complain about not being able to survive long against high level players. Honestly it's supposed to be this way.
If you're a complete newbie you're supposed to be demolished by a highly competitive player. If a newbie can survive a long time just because the game allows him to but not because he learned to play, it destroys the whole point of being a good player. Now imagine if you're fighting 3 newbies with 1/10 of your hours combined and they can survive for a long time and then they whoop your ass just because the game doesn't give you scope to win. So there's low skill ceiling and every player will leave the game after they have a few hundred hours in the game and they've learned basic mechanics.

  • 25 Jun '18
 Shovonem
This comment was deleted.