Mordhau

Feints

Baron 578 966
  • 29 Mar '18
 lash

I do think feints are mechanic that should be present, but it should be more situational and more costly I believe. More risk/reward thing. Not that you can pres this 5 times before landing the hit.

Separating playerbase by different rulesets servers is outright bad , it would end up just like chivalry low rank servers, where once the player reached 15 (i think it was) they joined normall server, fighting mostly people that
1) were around when there was no noob servers
2) had to get used to every mechanic
3) got gud

These players then proceeded to get raped, becouse they were only used to playing same noobs and they just simply quit.

301 875
  • 29 Mar '18
 Naleaus

@DarkTiti said:
Finally, saying that defence would be harder because there would be no way to do feint to parry is not a good argument: ftp is a difficult technique which new players are unable to perform anyway. And even if they could, would it be so bad not to have ftp? Not everyone is a fan of not being able to punish people who miss their attack.

Not going over the other stuff, someone else can, but the defense thing. How is a FTP hard? They've made it a single button press. It's as easy as trying to parry during your attack. CFTP is simple too, doesn't take much to explain it. Also, you can punish a ftp. It's called feint them. Or morph. Or drag. Or stam them out.

Sellsword 31 60
  • 29 Mar '18
 DarkTiti

@Naleaus said:

@DarkTiti said:
Finally, saying that defence would be harder because there would be no way to do feint to parry is not a good argument: ftp is a difficult technique which new players are unable to perform anyway. And even if they could, would it be so bad not to have ftp? Not everyone is a fan of not being able to punish people who miss their attack.

Not going over the other stuff, someone else can, but the defense thing. How is a FTP hard? They've made it a single button press. It's as easy as trying to parry during your attack. CFTP is simple too, doesn't take much to explain it. Also, you can punish a ftp. It's called feint them. Or morph. Or drag. Or stam them out.

And yet, at least in Chivarly, playing with average folks like me, I can tell you I very rarely saw ftp. I even thought my opponent was outright cheating when it first happened to me. Also, you can't expect newbies to know all the mechanics of the game. This stuff is not explained anywhere. If I had not spent time on the Internet to understand those things, I'd have never known this. Can you even fathom that some people find dragging complicated at first? Not everyone is good and understands stuff from the get go.

301 875
  • 1
  • 29 Mar '18
 Naleaus

@DarkTiti said:

@Naleaus said:

@DarkTiti said:
Finally, saying that defence would be harder because there would be no way to do feint to parry is not a good argument: ftp is a difficult technique which new players are unable to perform anyway. And even if they could, would it be so bad not to have ftp? Not everyone is a fan of not being able to punish people who miss their attack.

Not going over the other stuff, someone else can, but the defense thing. How is a FTP hard? They've made it a single button press. It's as easy as trying to parry during your attack. CFTP is simple too, doesn't take much to explain it. Also, you can punish a ftp. It's called feint them. Or morph. Or drag. Or stam them out.

And yet, at least in Chivarly, playing with average folks like me, I can tell you I very rarely saw ftp. I even thought my opponent was outright cheating when it first happened to me. Also, you can't expect newbies to know all the mechanics of the game. This stuff is not explained anywhere. If I had not spent time on the Internet to understand those things, I'd have never known this. Can you even fathom that some people find dragging complicated at first? Not everyone is good and understands stuff from the get go.

Chivalry didn't have one button FTP by default, so I'm not sure why you're comparing the two. You're also comparing a game that's been out years now for one in alpha. However, a tutorial is planned for release, but in the meantime, there's a beginners video linked on main screen when you start up the game. We're not expecting people to know stuff immediately, but if they're given the tools to learn, ignore them, then complain, the problem is with them, not necessarily the game.

Conscript 4562 6301
  • 29 Mar '18
 vanguard

We need a bloody good tutorial tbh, might easy all the feiting pains newer players might have.

As DarkTiti said, in chiv people were not introduced properly to the mechanics and were left to find everything out for themselves, which increase the chances of said new person find some things unfair or retarded, as some obscure mechanics can render your playstile less effective.

I think that, if we have a robust tutorial with suggestions on how to deal with feints or whatever, and with a few exercises to practice it, the whole casual X veteran view of the game dichotomy might reduce tbh.

Baron 1551 2085
  • 29 Mar '18
 yourcrippledson

@Naleaus

"Another big problem from the current initial feint windows is very late feint to parries, which means theres no commitment to attacks and you cant use good timing to simply get a hit in." -crushed said dis above. Was wondering what your opinion is on it. I personally wish there was at least a slightly larger window for punishing misses. But have no idea what domino effects it could potentially set in motion, ruining everything... heh

301 875
  • 29 Mar '18
 Naleaus

@yourcrippledson said:

@Naleaus

"Another big problem from the current initial feint windows is very late feint to parries, which means theres no commitment to attacks and you cant use good timing to simply get a hit in." -crushed said dis above. Was wondering what your opinion is on it. I personally wish there was at least a slightly larger window for punishing misses. But have no idea what domino effects it could potentially set in motion, ruining everything... heh

Would be fine to test, don't think it'll cause a lot of issues if it's not a major nerf. I think the other problem is fast combo times on quite a few weapons. If an attack is choreographed enough to properly time a punish it's not a big deal, but if they're attacking close to you, it's very easy to miss on purpose to keep you on the defensive. You can go for a chamber, kick or punish, but it's a gamble because of how easy it is to drag something into the legs. Plus they can usually get a CFTP off instead of a late FTP. Don't know, need to play around with timings some.

Baron 1551 2085
  • 3
  • 30 Mar '18
 yourcrippledson

@Naleaus said:

@yourcrippledson said:

@Naleaus

"Another big problem from the current initial feint windows is very late feint to parries, which means theres no commitment to attacks and you cant use good timing to simply get a hit in." -crushed said dis above. Was wondering what your opinion is on it. I personally wish there was at least a slightly larger window for punishing misses. But have no idea what domino effects it could potentially set in motion, ruining everything... heh

Would be fine to test, don't think it'll cause a lot of issues if it's not a major nerf. I think the other problem is fast combo times on quite a few weapons. If an attack is choreographed enough to properly time a punish it's not a big deal, but if they're attacking close to you, it's very easy to miss on purpose to keep you on the defensive. You can go for a chamber, kick or punish, but it's a gamble because of how easy it is to drag something into the legs. Plus they can usually get a CFTP off instead of a late FTP. Don't know, need to play around with timings some.

Currently if you bait players into a bad swing you'll get nothing for capitalizing on it, except being on the receiving end of a riposte feint. Which is fine because you can feint them first I guess... but that is not as satisfying to me personally... but then they aren't punished for the missed swing beyond some stam, all the bad swing did was set you up to feint them... Feints are a necessity but being able to hit players in other ways is just as important if nothing else than to reward and encourage some more variety in playstyle. Then maybe the feints won't feel so mechanically dominating?

Dodging will become more viable as a means of offense. which encourages gambling, but at the same time it is a calculated gamble, requiring skill in timing and spatial awareness. more avenues of dealing damage the better imo.. long as some semblance of balance is maintained.

No doubt some stuff is still too fast. This is compounded by the infinite FTP window, because people are waiting for the feint Window close, but never does on some accelerated attacks before you seem to be taking damage. Basically you have to wait too long, and I understand this keeps parry from being too easy, But it favours the attacker too much currently. By the time you know opponent can no longer feint out of the combo stab, you are already dead. Can't allow yourself to block the next stab yet because you know he is not committed to it.... just watch as he stabs you in the face lol. So basically the late feint window makes me get hit by combos a LOT.

Count 331 1394
  • 30 Mar '18
 RingMaster

@LuxCandidus said:

I have this to say to everyone else: you have already begun to see uninitiated players joining the game, playing for a while, and having their fun completely crushed by someone who knows how to press 'Q', leaving and never returning again. You know full well that once the game launches, the vast majority of new players will be driven away by mechanics such as feinting in its current state. Unless you want the playerbase to consist of only veterans, you cannot turn a blind eye to mechanics such as this just because they become manageable after two hundred hours. The average person is not going to waste two hundred hours of their time to not die whenever their opponent decides to press the 'I win' button.

i just creamed my pants reading that, you're being naive if ya'll think the 3000 backers aren't playing the game PURELY because of hype dying down and are just waiting for content, a large sum of those players aren't playing because of exactly this ^. Nice job on explaining it dude.

You shouldn't need to no life this game and/or have 1000000 hours in chiv prior to be able to enjoy this game, which at the moment, you do.

Baron 1551 2085
  • 1
  • 30 Mar '18
 yourcrippledson

@RingMaster said:

@LuxCandidus said:

I have this to say to everyone else: you have already begun to see uninitiated players joining the game, playing for a while, and having their fun completely crushed by someone who knows how to press 'Q', leaving and never returning again. You know full well that once the game launches, the vast majority of new players will be driven away by mechanics such as feinting in its current state. Unless you want the playerbase to consist of only veterans, you cannot turn a blind eye to mechanics such as this just because they become manageable after two hundred hours. The average person is not going to waste two hundred hours of their time to not die whenever their opponent decides to press the 'I win' button.

i just creamed my pants reading that, you're being naive if ya'll think the 3000 backers aren't playing the game PURELY because of hype dying down and are just waiting for content, a large sum of those players aren't playing because of exactly this ^. Nice job on explaining it dude.

You shouldn't need to no life this game and/or have 1000000 hours in chiv prior to be able to enjoy this game, which at the moment, you do.

People who enjoy learning and using the mechanics the game was built around and sold on are enjoying the game at the moment. People who are testing it to see what works and what doesn't all in the name of end game balance, which is the key to any fun multiplayer experience. Maybe the people who refuse to play the alpha should listen to the people who are actually testing it...

Count 331 1394
  • 30 Mar '18
 RingMaster

@yourcrippledson said:

@RingMaster said:

@LuxCandidus said:

I have this to say to everyone else: you have already begun to see uninitiated players joining the game, playing for a while, and having their fun completely crushed by someone who knows how to press 'Q', leaving and never returning again. You know full well that once the game launches, the vast majority of new players will be driven away by mechanics such as feinting in its current state. Unless you want the playerbase to consist of only veterans, you cannot turn a blind eye to mechanics such as this just because they become manageable after two hundred hours. The average person is not going to waste two hundred hours of their time to not die whenever their opponent decides to press the 'I win' button.

i just creamed my pants reading that, you're being naive if ya'll think the 3000 backers aren't playing the game PURELY because of hype dying down and are just waiting for content, a large sum of those players aren't playing because of exactly this ^. Nice job on explaining it dude.

You shouldn't need to no life this game and/or have 1000000 hours in chiv prior to be able to enjoy this game, which at the moment, you do.

People who enjoy learning and using the mechanics the game was built around and sold on are enjoying the game at the moment. People who are testing it to see what works and what doesn't all in the name of end game balance, which is the key to any fun multiplayer experience. Maybe the people who refuse to play the alpha should just listen to the people who are actually testing it...

I see where you're coming from here, you are correct that competitive games should absolutely be balanced around the best players, but i think you're forgetting there's a reason the vast majority of the players "refuse" to play the alpha.

the people who are playing the alpha right now are the 1% of players who can sink a third of their day into the game and have done so since it's release while also having a shitload of experience in this genre of this game (Chiv, Slasher before this, etc), they've gotten past the difficult part and can enjoy the game. That already shows there is an issue and i think you're just failing to see it or consider it. Just think how absurd that is, to need to have all those requirements met just to be able to squeeze some enjoyment out of the game, that's silly. Keeping the game as casual friendly as possible while also keeping the game's skill gap smooth and skill ladder high is the way to go, without one, the other struggles.

If the game is super duper hard for casual players and heck, even semi casual players (like myself and many others) then the game goes down the shitter because it's losing most of it's players (the casual players). But without a solid and juicy competitive side and a nice, tall skill ladder, what's the point of playing the game? You're not getting better because of the small skill ladder and the game would get boring and uninteresting fast, and so, the game goes down the shitter. Look at pretty much any popular competitive game right now, CSGO for example is MASSIVE because it's super casual friendly while also having an insanely high skill ladder and smooth skill gap. That's what we should try and make Mordhau to be, if Mordhau can be designed well enough to get even half of that perfect balance CSGO has, the game will be the new PUBG, but unfortunately that's gonna be difficult because of how different this game is.

I'm gonna be frank now too, after reading your posts and opinions on this topic, if you had your way and you decided how the game turns out, the game would die incredibly fast and would eventually dwindle to the playercount it has now (with probably the exact same players too). Like i said about the balance between casual and comeptitive, you have to consider both because without one, the other goes down.

301 875
  • 1
  • 30 Mar '18
 Naleaus

@RingMaster said:
If the game is super duper hard for casual players and heck, even semi casual players (like myself and many others) then the game goes down the shitter because it's losing most of it's players (the casual players). But without a solid and juicy competitive side and a nice, tall skill ladder, what's the point of playing the game? You're not getting better because of the small skill ladder and the game would get boring and uninteresting fast, and so, the game goes down the shitter. Look at pretty much any popular competitive game right now, CSGO for example is MASSIVE because it's super casual friendly while also having an insanely high skill ladder and smooth skill gap. That's what we should try and make Mordhau to be, if Mordhau can be designed well enough to get even half of that perfect balance CSGO has, the game will be the new PUBG, but unfortunately that's gonna be difficult because of how different this game is.

I'm gonna be frank now too, after reading your posts and opinions on this topic, if you had your way and you decided how the game turns out, the game would die incredibly fast and would eventually dwindle to the playercount it has now (with probably the exact same players too). Like i said about the balance between casual and comeptitive, you have to consider both because without one, the other goes down.

How much of the problem are the mechanics and how much is having to play with the people that have put time in and know how to use them? If a few new players to the genre picked up the game and only played against themselves, would the learning curve required be less harsh, and would they have fun with "silly melee game"?

To put it another way, if a super casual CS:GO player was put up against top comp players, do you think they'd play for very long? That's the situation we're in with the Alpha at the moment. If you're going to use another game as an example, think of them in the same situation, as you can't compare them in their current state.

Count 331 1394
  • 30 Mar '18
 RingMaster

@Naleaus said:

@RingMaster said:
If the game is super duper hard for casual players and heck, even semi casual players (like myself and many others) then the game goes down the shitter because it's losing most of it's players (the casual players). But without a solid and juicy competitive side and a nice, tall skill ladder, what's the point of playing the game? You're not getting better because of the small skill ladder and the game would get boring and uninteresting fast, and so, the game goes down the shitter. Look at pretty much any popular competitive game right now, CSGO for example is MASSIVE because it's super casual friendly while also having an insanely high skill ladder and smooth skill gap. That's what we should try and make Mordhau to be, if Mordhau can be designed well enough to get even half of that perfect balance CSGO has, the game will be the new PUBG, but unfortunately that's gonna be difficult because of how different this game is.

I'm gonna be frank now too, after reading your posts and opinions on this topic, if you had your way and you decided how the game turns out, the game would die incredibly fast and would eventually dwindle to the playercount it has now (with probably the exact same players too). Like i said about the balance between casual and comeptitive, you have to consider both because without one, the other goes down.

How much of the problem are the mechanics and how much is having to play with the people that have put time in and know how to use them? If a few new players to the genre picked up the game and only played against themselves, would the learning curve required be less harsh, and would they have fun with "silly melee game"?

To put it another way, if a super casual CS:GO player was put up against top comp players, do you think they'd play for very long? That's the situation we're in with the Alpha at the moment. If you're going to use another game as an example, think of them in the same situation, as you can't compare them in their current state.

Yea that's true and it's not fair to not compare them in the same situation which i should have done, however the range of skill between the players isn't the main issue with the game (though it definitely makes the main issue a lot more pronounced), if it was, more people simply would have stuck around. The combat is quite hard to enjoy, as we've been discussing. Pitting noob vs noob still yields the same issues as pitting noob vs god. Even a casual player who just wants to play the silly sword game will eventually get annoyed and pissed off at some of the issues in the game's combat, example being the feinting talked about in this topic.

To use that CSGO example, imagine if everyone in CSGO had unlimited flash grenades and just threw flashes everywhere so everyone's blind all the time, noobs vs noobs still isn't fun, however a god who has no lifed the game so much he's mastered and achieved "digital sonar" (lol) so he doesn't need to use his eyes and can kill people even if blinded can now enjoy the game.

Rough analogy lmao so let me explain, imagine the flash nades as feints and the clunky animation mixed with dragging and accels, and the "digital sonar" as being able to read the animations, distinguish between drags and accels and if an attack is a feint or not. You see what i'm getting at? It doesn't matter if it's noob vs noob or noob vs god, the issues still remain, it might just seem less of an issue in the noob vs noob case because both are winning instead of one side just winning over and over.

Baron 1551 2085
  • 30 Mar '18
 yourcrippledson

@RingMaster said:

@yourcrippledson said:

@RingMaster said:

@LuxCandidus said:

I have this to say to everyone else: you have already begun to see uninitiated players joining the game, playing for a while, and having their fun completely crushed by someone who knows how to press 'Q', leaving and never returning again. You know full well that once the game launches, the vast majority of new players will be driven away by mechanics such as feinting in its current state. Unless you want the playerbase to consist of only veterans, you cannot turn a blind eye to mechanics such as this just because they become manageable after two hundred hours. The average person is not going to waste two hundred hours of their time to not die whenever their opponent decides to press the 'I win' button.

i just creamed my pants reading that, you're being naive if ya'll think the 3000 backers aren't playing the game PURELY because of hype dying down and are just waiting for content, a large sum of those players aren't playing because of exactly this ^. Nice job on explaining it dude.

You shouldn't need to no life this game and/or have 1000000 hours in chiv prior to be able to enjoy this game, which at the moment, you do.

People who enjoy learning and using the mechanics the game was built around and sold on are enjoying the game at the moment. People who are testing it to see what works and what doesn't all in the name of end game balance, which is the key to any fun multiplayer experience. Maybe the people who refuse to play the alpha should just listen to the people who are actually testing it...

I see where you're coming from here, you are correct that competitive games should absolutely be balanced around the best players, but i think you're forgetting there's a reason the vast majority of the players "refuse" to play the alpha.

the people who are playing the alpha right now are the 1% of players who can sink a third of their day into the game and have done so since it's release while also having a shitload of experience in this genre of this game (Chiv, Slasher before this, etc), they've gotten past the difficult part and can enjoy the game. That already shows there is an issue and i think you're just failing to see it or consider it. Just think how absurd that is, to need to have all those requirements met just to be able to squeeze some enjoyment out of the game, that's silly. Keeping the game as casual friendly as possible while also keeping the game's skill gap smooth and skill ladder high is the way to go, without one, the other struggles.

Lowering the skill ceiling strikes a closer balance between casual players and skilled tryhards. That also has the added risk of making people like me play it as much as i played miraj instead of how much i played chiv...

What specifically are you advocating for mechanically? Feint free servers? Cause you are just going to get raped by drags and footwork anyway.

The alpha is not a friendly place for nubs. Chiv wasn't either in 2014, 2 years after release but i played it and had fun because i could see i was getting better and it felt good. If you don't enjoy games this way then okay, don't play the alpha, play against bots or find other casuals. There seem to be enough of you on this thread, why not all join a server and just don't feint each other?

It doesn't even logic how a feint free server would help. Now you can do the same limited game modes with fractured mechanics.

Seems like bullshit that feints are why people aren't playing. Atm all mordhau has is the equivalent of the ffa duel servers in chiv. And how many casuals hung around in there very long in chivalry? None. Unless you wanted to get good. So it is like 99.9% lack of game modes, maps, other nubs, unfinished mechanics. And like 0.1% directly because of feints.

Conscript 4562 6301
  • 1
  • 30 Mar '18
 vanguard

To talk about the fun factor of the game, well, imho the most fun thing there is in both mordhau and chiv is to outplay someone. Second to that is the roleplay factor imho.

I can tell you by experience that chiv got more and more fun the better I got, because I could outplay people more often.

So you see comrade, in a noob X noob duel, both will use feints pretty badly and most of the time feinting leaves noobs more vulnerable, specially against other noobos, because these people only fucking spam lmb and pray. Point being, when a noob plays against another noob, I don't think that there is a particular mechanic that is frustrating.

I'd say that at this moment it is really frustrating not because of the mechanics themselves, but because you are having to learn the game against people who mastered good part of it already.

So idk, a lot of people might be frustrated because they are missing a core part of the fun in this game, that is to outplay a opponent. I think that feints gets called out more then other mechanics because at first glance it is bloody op as fuck, and veterans using it can feel infuriating and unfair.

Idk thou tbh I could be talking mad shit here

Count 331 1394
  • 30 Mar '18
 RingMaster

@yourcrippledson said:

Seems like bullshit that feints are why people aren't playing. Atm all mordhau has is the equivalent of the ffa duel servers in chiv. And how many casuals hung around in there very long in chivalry? None. Unless you wanted to get good. So it is like 99.9% lack of game modes, maps, other nubs, unfinished mechanics. And like 0.1% directly because of feints.

Feints aren't the only reason, just like you said "just going to get raped by drags and footwork anyway.". funky animations, distinguishing between drags and accels are also why. Those culminate into the combat not being enjoyable for the casuals.

Obviously it's broken up between why 99% of backers aren't playing, but surely you can't think combat is in an ok state and that "99.9%" of players are MIA purely because of the lack of content, especially when you see how frequent the topic of balance, feints, drags, animations and more are on these forums. Thinking that way is dangerous.

Count 331 1394
  • 1
  • 30 Mar '18
 RingMaster

@vanguard said:
To talk about the fun factor of the game, well, imho the most fun thing there is in both mordhau and chiv is to outplay someone. Second to that is the roleplay factor imho.

I can tell you by experience that chiv got more and more fun the better I got, because I could outplay people more often.

So you see comrade, in a noob X noob duel, both will use feints pretty badly and most of the time feinting leaves noobs more vulnerable, specially against other noobos, because these people only fucking spam lmb and pray. Point being, when a noob plays against another noob, I don't think that there is a particular mechanic that is frustrating.

I'd say that at this moment it is really frustrating not because of the mechanics themselves, but because you are having to learn the game against people who mastered good part of it already.

So idk, a lot of people might be frustrated because they are missing a core part of the fun in this game, that is to outplay a opponent. I think that feints gets called out more then other mechanics because at first glance it is bloody op as fuck, and veterans using it can feel infuriating and unfair.

Idk thou tbh I could be talking mad shit here

I should elaborate what i mean between noob vs noob, what i really mean are players who aren't god tier, should've been more clear with that.

So when a "noob" vs "noob" square off, let's say they are well versed in most mechanics in the game, they can chamber normal attacks consistently, they have above average reaction times and can drag and accel while also being able to read the basic attacking animations most of the time (i literally just explained myself).

I'm playing against someone who is similiar my skill level so we are both on equal footing, dying to a drag that i couldn't hope to distinguish or a lame feint or a dodgy animation isn't (imo) fun, likewise, now i think this is key here and i've said this before, KILLING someone else, that's right, "beating" your opponent isn't all that fun either, because you know when you dragged or accel'd on them you know they couldn't read the animation because they aren't a god at the game, or if you did a lame feint or riposte feint or on their screen you did a wacky animation, you didn't as you said "outplay" them, you bullshitted yourway into another hit and won.

To me that isn't using mind games or having a faster mental agilty or beating them with greater experience or a more tuned muscle memory, that's just using broken shit in the game to force a win, only god tier chiv vets and Mordhau no lifes have adapted to that and can work with that shit, and like i've explained that shouldn't have to be the case of needing to be a pro level god to be able to get around that lame stuff. That right there is the issue imo, thanks for questioning me because it helped me explain my thoughts better.

Duke 5501 13138
  • 30 Mar '18
 Jax — Community Manager

The thing though is that the testers that are suggesting changes are coming from a perspective of "this would help the meta" which is much better than everyone just circlejerking, saying the game is perfect.

Also you say "funky animations" which a) are getting fixed and b) are used by veterans, and then you also say "distinguishing between drags and accels" which new players aren't able to do as well as vets.

The game is meant to be hard - and if you're going up against good players it will be insanely hard if you're inexperienced.
I don't see new players often because the overall skill level is absurdly high due to the alpha population being skewed. That being said, I've seen quite a few new guys hop in recently and they've improved massively, and they're still playing.

In any case, what you're suggesting (aside from common sense things like good animations) is to make the game easier, which just makes the game worse overall. Two bad players playing a hard game can still have fun, but the issue is these bad players are facing off against people who are already really good, in a game mode that's only fun if you win (duels).

Count 331 1394
  • 30 Mar '18
 RingMaster

@Jax said:
The thing though is that the testers that are suggesting changes are coming from a perspective of "this would help the meta" which is much better than everyone just circlejerking, saying the game is perfect.

Also you say "funky animations" which a) are getting fixed and b) are used by veterans, and then you also say "distinguishing between drags and accels" which new players aren't able to do as well as vets.

The game is meant to be hard - and if you're going up against good players it will be insanely hard if you're inexperienced.
I don't see new players often because the overall skill level is absurdly high due to the alpha population being skewed. That being said, I've seen quite a few new guys hop in recently and they've improved massively, and they're still playing.

In any case, what you're suggesting (aside from common sense things like good animations) is to make the game easier, which just makes the game worse overall. Two bad players playing a hard game can still have fun, but the issue is these bad players are facing off against people who are already really good, in a game mode that's only fun if you win (duels).

Don't want to sound like a fuck for saying this, but i'm not entirely sure you read all of my post, even in the case of vs's someone of equal skill still holds the same issues.

When you say that the funky animations are used by veterans, they are using them purposefully and knowingly, i sometimes will attack and the animation is wacky, but i didn't do that on purpose, total accident, which to me actually takes away from the skill.

In any case, what you're suggesting (aside from common sense things like good animations) is to make the game easier, which just makes the game worse overall. Two bad players playing a hard game can still have fun, but the issue is these bad players are facing off against people who are already really good, in a game mode that's only fun if you win (duels).

Like i said, even if i do win, i know i won a lot of the time purely because did some bullshit on them i knew they couldn't comprehend (and neither could i have) which to me isn't fun, just seeing RingMaster killed GIRUGIRU (Kappa) isn't enough to have fun, knowing you outplayed someone by let's say performing a feat of well reacted chambers and quick thinking while throwing some mind games in is what is fun, like what vanguard said, the fun is in "outplaying" your opponent.

And about making the game easier, this is a controversial one, because ideally you want a game as the classic "easy to learn, hard to master" and at the moment for the most part the game is exactly that, but it's the issue of the necessity to master the game to actually have a wholesome and engaging time with the combat system and enjoy what i explained just above. I in no way would want the game to be easier, you're abolutely right that will just make the game worse, that's pretty much just shaving years off the game's lifespan, however i still believe that it's possible to make the game more fun for the casuals while still keeping the game's skill ceiling high af.

Duke 5501 13138
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  • 30 Mar '18
 Jax — Community Manager

You're right, I didn't read all of your posts and I see what you're saying now.

I guess the way to accomplish this is by making things consistent and having clear counterplay for certain mechanics, but how exactly do the devs go about doing this? It's a tough issue.

Currently I'd say that while it needs meta tweaking, the high-end of the skill range feels pretty decent at the moment. The low end needs quite a bit of work however.